Well, good luck in the future.
--

Tom
MSMVP 1998-2007

In article ,
am says...
"Tom Ferguson" wrote in message
...

Any time there is a change to the behavior of a tool, users are forced to
experience some-to-much re-familiarization time. Hopefully, most will find
the newly expanded abilities worth the admitted pain. Also, one hopes that
usability improves as development continues.

Vista search simple DOES NOT WORK when searching for strings on my Vista
Ultimate machine. I've seen it work on another Vista machine, but search
does not work on my machine. I have given Microsoft an example of searching
for six identical files with six different extensions. Vista can find three
but is blind to the other three. Even "Advanced Search" and its checkbox
"Include non-indexed, hidden, and system files (might be slow)" cannot find
three of these six identical files.

You are not alone. Even with the so called new search
engine my vista premium fails to find a single mp3 file
on my C drive, this when searching without an index for
*.mp3. The search goes on for 10 minutes and finds
nothing, absolutely nothing. Index searching finds every
file in the index, but files in certain directories, as
you know are not indexed.

Agentransak finds 46 files in 2 seconds. Like you I am
responsible for mutliple computers in our office (20 to
be exact). Also, since I do some programing I frequently
store files in different locations. If I need to be sure
to find every file with a *.prg extension containing the
expression "Create array", I am not sure what Vista will
return.

I am suspicious that what we are seeing is an indexing
system designed for a future file system which failed to
materialize with Vista.

I also agree, that when you give users better tools you
don't break those that worked.

I'll pass the feedback along to the design team. I feel the pain as well.

"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, Justin.

Welcome to the newsgroup! ;)

The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
team.
It does not show progress,

Well, it APPEARS to show progress. Where is there any indication to the
user that it is showing anything other than progress?

but it does reflect that we're still performing
work.

But there is NO feedback as to whether it might be finished - or give up -
in another 10 seconds or that it might take another 10 hours - or 10 days.
:(

There is no clue as to whether it is now searching in Drive C: or in Drive
X: or even somewhere on the Internet maybe?

It was tweaked significantly during the different Betas and Release
Candidates until people were generally ok with it.

I participated in the last year or more of the Vista beta; at least a
half-dozen builds, both 32-bit and 64-bit. I recall significant
improvements in some parts of Search, but NOT in this "progress bar" area.
That feeling that it would never get to the Finish Line did not go away
during the beta - or since.

The non-productive and non-informative pulsing of that green bar gets to be
INFURIATING!!! Doesn't anybody on the Microsoft Team understand that?

Thanks for the tips about how to speed up the Search. My frustration,
though, is not that the search takes so long, but that it NEVER gives up, or
even pauses to take a breath, give me a progress report, and ask me if I'd
like to trim my parameters or if I want it to just "press on!"

PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup now
and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.

Please do, Justin. You will, of course, get flamed by some immature
readers. But you also should hear some legitimate complaints, questions,
requests and suggestions that you will never get from anywhere else.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)

"Justin Martin [MSFT]" wrote in
message ...
Microsoftie here

The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
team.
It does not show progress, but it does reflect that we're still performing
work. It was tweaked significantly during the different Betas and Release
Candidates until people were generally ok with it.

Searching in indexed locations should be fast. It should be even faster
with Window Search 4 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/940157) installed.
The
more locations on the disk you have indexed, the faster the searching of
these locations should be. Keep in mind that we don't index the entire
drive
on purpose, as the indexer wasn't designed to handle the load that is
associated with indexing directories like Windows or Program Files.

Searching all of the Computer is a very costly operation, because a
majority
of the time is spent crawling the disk trying to find the items that
you're
looking for. The non-indexed search of Vista is slower than XP and other
engines by default, because we end up searching more properties. Also, we
perform our searches differently than most engines (word based, rather
than
character or regular expression based). This isn't an excuse, we should
still do a better job of being more efficient.

Granted that it may be slower in some situations, there are things you can
do to improve performance of your searches.

1. Scope your search location. Only include the locations you think that
you may find the file you're looking for. This will obviously speed
things
up.
2. Scope your search to only search for properties you care about. Use
either the Advanced Search Pane or directly use Advanced Query Syntax
(such
as name:foo, or author:bar). See
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa965711.aspx for more details.
The
syntax isn't perfect and there is a lot of work trying to keep the
behavior
of non-indexed searches to match the behavior of indexed searches (which
isn't perfect), even though it is two completely distinct search
providers.
3. Add more locations of the files you care about to the index. When
searching non-indexed locations like Computer, we will leverage the
indexer
to return results for indexed locations on the system.
4. Keep the "Search system folders" checkbox unchecked in the Search
Options, unless you're sure that's where you want to look. When this
option
is set, searching from c:\ will not search within system directories like
c:\windows and c:\program files.
5. Don't use the "Include non-indexed, hidden and system files (might be
slow)" checkbox in the Advanced search box unless you have to. This
option
will not use the index at all and will perform a non-indexed search of all
locations and also look in system folders.

Hope this helps,
Justin

PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup now
and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.

"GeraldF" wrote:
You are not alone. Even with the so called new search
engine my vista premium fails to find a single mp3 file
on my C drive, this when searching without an index for
*.mp3. The search goes on for 10 minutes and finds
nothing, absolutely nothing. Index searching finds every
file in the index, but files in certain directories, as
you know are not indexed.

Searching C: for *.mp3 isn't finding files with the MP3 extension? Where
are the files that you're searching for? This shouldn't happen, and I've
never heard of this happening. More specifics would help narrow down the
cause.

Agentransak finds 46 files in 2 seconds. Like you I am
responsible for mutliple computers in our office (20 to
be exact). Also, since I do some programing I frequently
store files in different locations. If I need to be sure
to find every file with a *.prg extension containing the
expression "Create array", I am not sure what Vista will
return.

We realize that reliability of the results and trusting that it is finding
everything that you're looking for is huge. Without it, we lose all
viability. The Windows Search 4 release (currently in Beta on download
center) is intended to speed up indexed queries and address indexing
reliability issues.

I know there are many settings and that indexing can be useful to some,
however the situation seems to have been made quite confusing to many users.

For example, I rarely "Search" for anything, when I do it probably takes
the form of *.dll because I want to locate some file or other to work
with. I don't really care if it takes 5 minutes to find, but I do want
to be sure if it is there or not. What I do care about is that I have to
wait 5 minutes EVERY time as Vista "Indexes" things at boot. Despite
this time during which the disk drive is grinding away when I type *.dll
it comes back with nothing. Even if the file is in plain sight on the
desktop Vista does not find it. W2000 and XP used to just "Find" things,
indexed or not.

All files that are within an indexed location (such as the desktop or user
profile) should be returned by the indexer. All other results are returned
by the GREP search engine. If the file is not in the index, it could be
either:

1. a reliability issue with the indexer. We're addressing many issues with
the Windows Search 4 release that is currently in Beta on download center.

2. there are certain items that we won't index. Please see
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932989/en-us for more information. I realize
this is overly complicated and we're looking at simplifying the design.

So my experience when first using Vista was with the default settings,
and despite 5 minutes every boot and 5 minutes every search I could not
be sure the file wasn't there, only that Vista wasn't locating it. Once
I went to the drive properties and turned indexing off the boot process
went back to a realistic time and Vista still couldn't find anything but
waiting time was acceptable.

We're looking into issues causing slow boot/resume across the board.

So I guess the question is why change the "Expected" behavior and force
the user to make changes he/she is not familiar with when it seems that
what "Windows always does" was quite acceptable. I may well have missed
the point somewhere, I just want to know where

I firmly believe there is value-add for indexed search on the desktop. I
use it for email, files, and programs on a daily basis. I tend to use it
more as a "access my stuff quickly, regardless of where it is" rather than a
"i don't know where my files are, help me find them". That said, it is
unacceptable for us to break the latter scenario just to enable the former.
It sounds like this has happened in some cases, and if you have specific
qualms, please voice them as feedback for the design teams. Thanks!

Any time there is a change to the behavior of a tool, users are forced to
experience some-to-much re-familiarization time. Hopefully, most will find
the newly expanded abilities worth the admitted pain. Also, one hopes that
usability improves as development continues.

Vista search simple DOES NOT WORK when searching for strings on my Vista
Ultimate machine. I've seen it work on another Vista machine, but search
does not work on my machine. I have given Microsoft an example of searching
for six identical files with six different extensions. Vista can find three
but is blind to the other three. Even "Advanced Search" and its checkbox
"Include non-indexed, hidden, and system files (might be slow)" cannot find
three of these six identical files.

Give me an example and I'll take a look. It is probably due to Vista's
query parsing being word based rather than character based. There is
probably syntax to do what you're trying to do, but we should do our best to
make sure the defaults do what you need.

In the last year, I have literally spend DAYS indexing and re-indexing and
re-indexing, trying to get Vista search to work. It does not work on my
machine in my hands. I have demostrated to Microsoft I can get search to
work correctly for Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP. Why is prior Windows
knowledge NOT enough to get search to work in Vista?

It should be, and if it isn't then we've done something wrong. Reindexing
won't solve your problem unless the item failed to index in the first case.
You can generally tell if it failed to index if it isn't returned in a *
search in the location containing the file. Take a look at
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932989/en-us for more information.

I have begged and pleaded with Microsoft to find out why search doesn't work
on my Ultimate machine, OR give me the right to go back to XP. Microsoft
REFUSES to fix the problem, and REFUSES to let me go back to XP without
paying them more money because they made a flawed product. I just want the
search functionality that was in Windows Explorer in Windows 2000 (or XP
with the registry hack). Why is that too much to ask? Why is wanting a
product that works correctly too high of an expectation?

I'm not sure what you're referencing about the Win2k search functionality or
XP registry hack. What specifically are you looking for that we don't offer
in Win2k? Naturally, we change the behavior in an effort to improve the
overall experience for a majority of users. While this will step on some
toes for people that are used to doing things in a specific way or rely on
some specific functionality, it should be intuitive enough to users to use
the system in the new way. We're not out to make people angry or upset with
the new functionality.

I normally want to do very targeted searches. I usually know what directory
to start in and usually need to search for a string in a few hundred or a
few thousand files. The free Agent Ransack
(http://www.mythicsoft.com/agentransack/) lets me do searches that ALWAYS
work in Vista (it can find all six files in the search failure example I
gave Microsoft). But why should I need a 3rd party tool for such basic
search functionality when I paid for the "ultimate" version of Vista?

As I stated in another post, the functionality for search is not
differentiated in the version of Windows you buy. As stated before, if you
give me an example of what isn't working, I will investigate why it isn't
finding those files.

Here are the Microsoft guys that REFUSE to discuss the search failure of
Vista any more. They have blocked E-mails from me, since it's easier to
ignore me than fix the search problem in Vista:

Delivery has failed to these recipients or distribution lists:


An error occurred while trying to deliver this message to the recipient's
e-mail address. Microsoft Exchange will not try to redeliver this message
for you. Please try resending this message, or provide the following
diagnostic text to your system administrator.


An error occurred while trying to deliver this message to the recipient's
e-mail address. Microsoft Exchange will not try to redeliver this message
for you. Please try resending this message, or provide the following
diagnostic text to your system administrator.
The following organization rejected your message: mailb.microsoft.com.

Neither of those two work at Microsoft anymore, hence the bounceback. It
isn't that someone is ignoring you.

Justin Martin [MSFT] wrote:
I know there are many settings and that indexing can be useful to some,
however the situation seems to have been made quite confusing to many users.

All files that are within an indexed location (such as the desktop or user
profile) should be returned by the indexer. All other results are returned
by the GREP search engine. If the file is not in the index, it could be
either:

Snipped for brevity

Thank you Justin. I am pleased that the situation is getting attention
because when people get replies in these groups that effectively say "It
is because you are stupid" the frustration reflects back on Microsoft,
never mind that the accusation did not come from Microsoft or anybody
working there.

Hi, Justin.

Thanks!

And a new/old item that might belong in a new thread, but since I have your
attention here...

Why doesn't Search index .pub files? After a lot of griping and complaining
(and searching), I finally got it fixed so that I could find names in files
of the weekly Rotary newsletter that I "Published" for 3 years. Then, last
week, some unrelated computer glitch that I still don't understand caused
Chkdsk to wipe out the dedicated partition where I kept my Index. Indexing
Options has now rebuilt my Index, but it is much smaller; apparently I
haven't yet included nearly as many locations as I did a year ago. But I DO
again include the folder with all those .pub files, and I've set Search for
the .pub extension to search by both title and content.

But I've forgotten where I got that .pub fix and haven't had time to Search
for it yet. So I have two questions for your Team:
1. Do you have a guess as to which fix I might have used before to
search inside .pub files?
2. Will Search 4 handle .pub files without a fix?

Thanks again, Justin. It helps A LOT to know that someone on the Team is
reading and (at least sometimes) responding to messages here. ;)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)

"Justin Martin [MSFT]" wrote in
message ...
I'll pass the feedback along to the design team. I feel the pain as well.

"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, Justin.

Welcome to the newsgroup! ;)

The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
team.
It does not show progress,

SNIP

Hope this helps,
Justin

PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup
now
and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.

On May 13, 3:49*am, "Tom Ferguson" wrote:
I am sure there are many who know how to "fix it", at least, in principle.
And many of them are at Microsoft. g

Without going into the details of search theory or methods of
implementation: It could well be that nothing is actually broken so does not
need fixing in the strict sense. Possibly, the search algorithms are
performing exactly as designed. However, it also might be true that they
could be better implemented. For example, they could be recoded into
assembly or direct machine code-seldom done now-but that's a topic for a
different place and time. As one example of a fast search-isoHunt, a Torrent
search engine, *is very rapid considering the vast quantity of data indexed
however it retunes a quantity of false positives.

In designing any program, there are many trade-offs. All of them affect the
search speed. E.g. Do you do a full, all storage devices search or limit it
to a particular set of locations (Vista actually allows the user to modify
to search entire index or just user files). How highly do you value
reliability (same results on repeated searches of the same data),
accuracy/fuzziness (result matches target/result is a near match), &c. But
Here I am probably not saying anything you don't know.

In short, if it's not too late for that, we can be certain that these are
matters that are routinely reviewed as development goes forward as halting
and retrograde as that motion sometimes appears.
--

Tom
MSMVP 1998-2007

"Dima" wrote in message

...

No, I have not find any new information. It's strange that nobody knows a
resolution to the slow search in Vista!
"R. C. White" wrote in message
...
Hi, Dima.

Is there an echo in here?

This sounds like the discussion we had here a week or two ago. *Yes, here
it is: *started by you on 4/28/08, Subject: *Why does Windows Vista x64
search so long? *Like this current post, it was cross-posted to 3 NGs;
that thread has 9 posts, of which 5 were from you. *One is from me, one
from Tony Sperling and 2 from Colin Barnhorst.

The bulk of your current post is a cut-n-pasted direct quote from my post
of 4/28/08 in that other thread. *I don't mind your using my description
of the problem, but whenever you "borrow" text from somewhere, common
courtesy (and Netiquette) requires that you identify the source.

Have you found new information about this problem, Dima? *Or are you just
asking the same question again?

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)

"Dima" wrote in message
...
Hello!
Why does Windows Vista x64 search so long, especially when the progress
in the bar is at the end and the ring is rolling (a replacement for the
sand glass)?
When a search is not "nearly instantaneous" it takes nearly forever.
That is, when you ask for an Advanced Search of Computer, the bar first
goes half-way across fairly quickly. *Then it goes more slowly to about
3/4 of the way, appearing to redraw the bar every second or so, then
more slowly still to 7/8, etc., getting closer to the end with each
redraw - but never quite reaching the end. *I watch hopefully as it gets
to the little down-pointing triangle, thinking that it will give up when
it gets there and report that it can't find what it's searching for.
But it doesn't. It keeps creeping further, past the vertical separator
at the end of the Address Bar, and then at a maddeningly slow pace
across the red "X" and... hours later, the green bar is still being
redrawn and it STILL hasn't got to the end.
Windows XP Pro on the same computer (but on another HDD) searches for
the same files (on all HDDs) five times faster.
Sincerely,
Dima

You have got to be kidding
"Possibly, the search algorithms are
performing exactly as designed."
This makes it OK?
You can call what you want but all it is, is a defective product that
does not do the intended job.

I've sent your questions to the team. You'd need to register an IFilter
(PersistentHandler) for the .pub entry under HKCR. Look at
HKCR\.doc\PersistentHandler for an example. I'm not sure if there is an
IFilter for this file format in the wild somewhere or if the one we use
in-box for doc files would work. You can mess around with it to see if you
can get it to work yourself, or hopefully someone from the Office IFilter
team will respond shortly.

"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, Justin.

Thanks!

And a new/old item that might belong in a new thread, but since I have your
attention here...

Why doesn't Search index .pub files? After a lot of griping and complaining
(and searching), I finally got it fixed so that I could find names in files
of the weekly Rotary newsletter that I "Published" for 3 years. Then, last
week, some unrelated computer glitch that I still don't understand caused
Chkdsk to wipe out the dedicated partition where I kept my Index. Indexing
Options has now rebuilt my Index, but it is much smaller; apparently I
haven't yet included nearly as many locations as I did a year ago. But I DO
again include the folder with all those .pub files, and I've set Search for
the .pub extension to search by both title and content.

But I've forgotten where I got that .pub fix and haven't had time to Search
for it yet. So I have two questions for your Team:
1. Do you have a guess as to which fix I might have used before to
search inside .pub files?
2. Will Search 4 handle .pub files without a fix?

Thanks again, Justin. It helps A LOT to know that someone on the Team is
reading and (at least sometimes) responding to messages here. ;)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)

"Justin Martin [MSFT]" wrote in
message ...
I'll pass the feedback along to the design team. I feel the pain as well.

"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, Justin.

Welcome to the newsgroup! ;)

The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
team.
It does not show progress,

SNIP

Hope this helps,
Justin

PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup
now
and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.