Mark Veldhuis;798781 Wrote:
At that point Vista is giving me frequent memory low warnings, and
Firefox crashed a couple of times. Shouldn't Superfetch free up RAM
then? Are you 100% sure you're seeing "memory low" warnings, not "virtual
memory low" warnings?

--



Met vriendelijke groet,
Mark Veldhuis.
Yes, I am sure (see screeny).

I don't know, but 700MB memory left seems plenty to me. Should I check
for RAM errors?

Is there any program that would allow me to see where my RAM is going,
if it is not at all accounted for in Process XP/Task Manager?


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: vista ram 2.jpg |
|Download: http://www.vistax64.com/attachment.p...achmentid=5681 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
Anfy

In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and
many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory addresses
which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by the hardware.
Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass this address
translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all
running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the system.

RAM is a limited resource, whereas virtual memory is, for most practical
purposes, unlimited. There can be a large number of processes _each_ with
its own 2 GB of private virtual address space. When the memory in use by
all the existing processes exceeds the amount of RAM available, the
operating system will move pages (4 KB pieces) of one or more virtual
address spaces to the computer's hard disk, thus freeing that RAM frame for
other uses. In Windows systems, these "paged out" pages are stored in one
or more files called pagefile.sys in the root of a partition.

By limiting the number of virtual addresses available with a minimized
pagefile size, you actually cause more paging to occur as the programs find
they need the same addresses to run. Even though the programs may not use
these addresses under normal conditions, the program assigns the space based
on program requirements under all known conditions. Each program may
allocate 2GB of virtual addresses to run properly. If this space is not
available, the application may become unstable.

If you look at the Performance Monitor page you will see text indicating
types of memory in use:
Committed Bytes - how much has been allocated by processes. If this value is
greater than your RAM, then the additional space must be available as
pagefile space.
Working Set or Total - shows how much is actually in use. As this value
approaches your total RAM value, non-critical functions are moved over to
the pagefile.
Available MB - When RAM is in short supply (committed installed), the OS
will attempt to keep a certain fraction of installed RAM available (20%) for
immediate use by copying virtual memory pages that are not in active use to
the page file.

It is possible to have very few "programs" running and still be
overcommitted. In this case, a larger pagefile will accept the non-critical
information _once_ and be done. In this case, it does not slow you down. If
the pagefile is small, then windows will keep shuffling the current
non-critical tasks to the small pagefile creating a larger workload on the
RAM and thrashing the hard drive.

In today's computers, 32MB is a pittance and unlikely to be sufficient to
allow stable operation of more than a couple processes. The addition of RAM
and switching to x64 will prevent overcommitting and make the pagefile less
needed allowing it to be smaller.

Good luck!


"Anfy" wrote in message
...

Mark Veldhuis;798720 Wrote:
Unlike what Superfetch
(if it were the problem) would do, when memory intensive programs
(like
firefox and google earth, each easily taking up 300~500MB) are
running,
the RAM is not given up, and results in total RAM usage of 80%+.
So what?
With those "memory intensive" programs running, you still have about
20% of free RAM. Why would Superfecth free up any RAM if there's
still
plenty of RAM available?

--



Met vriendelijke groet,
Mark Veldhuis.

At that point Vista is giving me frequent memory low warnings, and
Firefox crashed a couple of times. Shouldn't Superfetch free up RAM
then?


*@Mark H:*
With a very limited hard drive space on my laptop, I can't afford a 6GB
page file that would make my system slower from all the paging. It also
doesn't explain why the system can boot up and run fine on 30~40% of RAM
for a few hours, then decide it wants 30% more for no reason, and
doesn't give any indication of where the RAM went. That is what I'm
really asking. If you think my page file is not enough, please explain
how it is related to the problem.


--
Anfy

Mark H;798793 Wrote:
In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and
many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory
addresses
which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by the
hardware.
Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass this address
translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all
running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the
system.

RAM is a limited resource, whereas virtual memory is, for most
practical
purposes, unlimited. There can be a large number of processes _each_
with
its own 2 GB of private virtual address space. When the memory in use
by
all the existing processes exceeds the amount of RAM available, the
operating system will move pages (4 KB pieces) of one or more virtual
address spaces to the computer's hard disk, thus freeing that RAM frame
for
other uses. In Windows systems, these "paged out" pages are stored in
one
or more files called pagefile.sys in the root of a partition.

By limiting the number of virtual addresses available with a minimized
pagefile size, you actually cause more paging to occur as the programs
find
they need the same addresses to run. Even though the programs may not
use
these addresses under normal conditions, the program assigns the space
based
on program requirements under all known conditions. Each program may
allocate 2GB of virtual addresses to run properly. If this space is not
available, the application may become unstable.

If you look at the Performance Monitor page you will see text
indicating
types of memory in use:
Committed Bytes - how much has been allocated by processes. If this
value is
greater than your RAM, then the additional space must be available as
pagefile space.
Working Set or Total - shows how much is actually in use. As this value
approaches your total RAM value, non-critical functions are moved over
to
the pagefile.
Available MB - When RAM is in short supply (committed installed), the
OS
will attempt to keep a certain fraction of installed RAM available
(20%) for
immediate use by copying virtual memory pages that are not in active
use to
the page file.

It is possible to have very few "programs" running and still be
overcommitted. In this case, a larger pagefile will accept the
non-critical
information _once_ and be done. In this case, it does not slow you
down. If
the pagefile is small, then windows will keep shuffling the current
non-critical tasks to the small pagefile creating a larger workload on
the
RAM and thrashing the hard drive.

In today's computers, 32MB is a pittance and unlikely to be sufficient
to
allow stable operation of more than a couple processes. The addition of
RAM
and switching to x64 will prevent overcommitting and make the pagefile
less
needed allowing it to be smaller.

Good luck!


"Anfy" wrote in message
...

Mark Veldhuis;798720 Wrote: So what?
With those "memory intensive" programs running, you still have
about
20% of free RAM. Why would Superfecth free up any RAM if there's
still
plenty of RAM available?

--



Met vriendelijke groet,
Mark Veldhuis.
At that point Vista is giving me frequent memory low warnings,
and
Firefox crashed a couple of times. Shouldn't Superfetch free up
RAM
then?


*@Mark H:*
With a very limited hard drive space on my laptop, I can't afford
a 6GB
page file that would make my system slower from all the paging.
It also
doesn't explain why the system can boot up and run fine on 30~40%
of RAM
for a few hours, then decide it wants 30% more for no reason, and
doesn't give any indication of where the RAM went. That is what
I'm
really asking. If you think my page file is not enough, please
explain
how it is related to the problem.


--
Anfy

First of all, thank you for the explanation and patience.

Yes, I understand how virtual addresses work, as you described above.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was told (on another forum) that
using 32MB on a page file enables the "unlimited" virtual address, so
that only what programs actually need (not what they allocate) is
written to the RAM. Assuming that my running programs' Working set
total stay well below the maximum RAM on my computer (which they do),
then 32MB of page files should be enough. Only when my total working
set is greater than my RAM is paging really necessary. In that case,
enabling a page file bigger than 32MB may result in unnecessay page-outs
should Windows determine part of the non-critical working set of itself
or running programs could be put in page files to optimize RAM usage.

So what? The extra 30% (1.2GB) of RAM uncounted for, used by the OS
(or something else) is making my RAM available to programs ridiculously
lower, and if I had a bigger page file, it would account for some
incredible page-outs. That is the root of the problem.

P.S. I have experienced ZERO disk-thrashing, with the exception of
software updates and defragmenting.


--
Anfy

Vista actually needs virtual memory. Reset to the defaults and your
problem should disappear. Clearing and/or Freeing Up memory is
part of the process which Vista uses virtual memory.

The other remote possibility is you run something regularly that does
not free up used memory. Old games and other older programs could
fall into this category however is unlikely these run in native Vista. You
would have to be using a Virtual Machine.

"Anfy" wrote in message ...

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, so bare with me if this has already been
discussed...

When I first start my computer (Vista Ultimate x64), on 4GB of RAM, the
system uses about ~36%. This gradually increases to ~40% later on. The
problem is, when I leave the computer on for extended periods of time (a
few days), this "idle" RAM usage goes up dramatically, to 60+ and
sometimes 70+ %, with VERY few programs, if any, running. Looking at
task manager or process explorer (with admin rights enabled) shows
absolutely no culprit to this extreme RAM usage. Unlike what Superfetch
(if it were the problem) would do, when memory intensive programs (like
firefox and google earth, each easily taking up 300~500MB) are running,
the RAM is not given up, and results in total RAM usage of 80%+.
Sometimes this causes firefox to crash, and occasionally (haven't had it
happen in months), the system would crash.

The page file has been set to 32MB (left on so the virtual memory
addresses are open), but it clearly doesn't explain why Vista chews up
so much memory by itself.

Attached is a picture of Vista chewing up 81% RAM idling, with nothing
running except MSN and WMP. Just before this screenshot was taken, RAM
jumped up to 97% (nothing crashed, surprisingly), and soon afterwards,
it dropped to 66% (after being at ~80% for quite a while).

I've also noticed that around 2:30AM-3:00AM, something likes to start
eating RAM and CPU cycles (with no indication whatsoever in process
explorer), and eventually stop for no reason. This happens often.

Any idea where I should start? All help is greatly appreciated!

Edit: in the screenshot I forgot to enable all processes, but process
explorer (with admin rights) didn't show anything else except 2
svchost.exe's taking up ~280MB in total.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: vista ram.jpg |
|Download: http://www.vistax64.com/attachment.p...achmentid=5680 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
Anfy

Hmm...
32MB is the recommended minimum pagefile size for the OS partition IF you
split the pagefile across multiple drives.
This can result in faster read/writes since the drives can operate
independantly.

400MB is the mimimum pagefile size recommended to record crash data.

The fact that you are not thrashing the HDD is good news and indicates that
actual paging is not likely part of your issue. At least, not until it
attempts to page to free your memory.

I still believe that you are imposing the problem on yourself with such a
small pagefile. Programs want to use the pagefile, if available, to maximize
the amount of memory available for other processes. Some programs create a
pagefile of their own if an adequate one is not available in windows.
Window's garbage collection routines (on systems with 4GB or less) do not
free memory until a minimum threshold of physical memory is reached (which I
believe is 32MB, or 99% of resources.) So, if everything is being retained
in RAM (remember, various things auto-start over time,) then memory will
"disappear" or be "used" over time until the threshold is reached at which
point all these silent processes attempt to move to the page file which
basically doesn't exist and your computer reports low memory because it
cannot free up the memory that is being demanded fast enough. (My theory.)

Task Manager can be use to open additional colums that allow you to see VM
use, or attempts.

With that, I'll let you go back into the fray for answers, since I don't
have a definite answer.



"Anfy" wrote in message
...

Mark H;798793 Wrote:
In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and
many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory
addresses
which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by the
hardware.
Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass this address
translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all
running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the
system.

RAM is a limited resource, whereas virtual memory is, for most
practical
purposes, unlimited. There can be a large number of processes _each_
with
its own 2 GB of private virtual address space. When the memory in use
by
all the existing processes exceeds the amount of RAM available, the
operating system will move pages (4 KB pieces) of one or more virtual
address spaces to the computer's hard disk, thus freeing that RAM frame
for
other uses. In Windows systems, these "paged out" pages are stored in
one
or more files called pagefile.sys in the root of a partition.

By limiting the number of virtual addresses available with a minimized
pagefile size, you actually cause more paging to occur as the programs
find
they need the same addresses to run. Even though the programs may not
use
these addresses under normal conditions, the program assigns the space
based
on program requirements under all known conditions. Each program may
allocate 2GB of virtual addresses to run properly. If this space is not
available, the application may become unstable.

If you look at the Performance Monitor page you will see text
indicating
types of memory in use:
Committed Bytes - how much has been allocated by processes. If this
value is
greater than your RAM, then the additional space must be available as
pagefile space.
Working Set or Total - shows how much is actually in use. As this value
approaches your total RAM value, non-critical functions are moved over
to
the pagefile.
Available MB - When RAM is in short supply (committed installed), the
OS
will attempt to keep a certain fraction of installed RAM available
(20%) for
immediate use by copying virtual memory pages that are not in active
use to
the page file.

It is possible to have very few "programs" running and still be
overcommitted. In this case, a larger pagefile will accept the
non-critical
information _once_ and be done. In this case, it does not slow you
down. If
the pagefile is small, then windows will keep shuffling the current
non-critical tasks to the small pagefile creating a larger workload on
the
RAM and thrashing the hard drive.

In today's computers, 32MB is a pittance and unlikely to be sufficient
to
allow stable operation of more than a couple processes. The addition of
RAM
and switching to x64 will prevent overcommitting and make the pagefile
less
needed allowing it to be smaller.

Good luck!


"Anfy" wrote in message
...

Mark Veldhuis;798720 Wrote: So what?
With those "memory intensive" programs running, you still have
about
20% of free RAM. Why would Superfecth free up any RAM if there's
still
plenty of RAM available?

--



Met vriendelijke groet,
Mark Veldhuis.
At that point Vista is giving me frequent memory low warnings,
and
Firefox crashed a couple of times. Shouldn't Superfetch free up
RAM
then?


*@Mark H:*
With a very limited hard drive space on my laptop, I can't afford
a 6GB
page file that would make my system slower from all the paging.
It also
doesn't explain why the system can boot up and run fine on 30~40%
of RAM
for a few hours, then decide it wants 30% more for no reason, and
doesn't give any indication of where the RAM went. That is what
I'm
really asking. If you think my page file is not enough, please
explain
how it is related to the problem.


--
Anfy

First of all, thank you for the explanation and patience.

Yes, I understand how virtual addresses work, as you described above.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was told (on another forum) that
using 32MB on a page file enables the "unlimited" virtual address, so
that only what programs actually need (not what they allocate) is
written to the RAM. Assuming that my running programs' Working set
total stay well below the maximum RAM on my computer (which they do),
then 32MB of page files should be enough. Only when my total working
set is greater than my RAM is paging really necessary. In that case,
enabling a page file bigger than 32MB may result in unnecessay page-outs
should Windows determine part of the non-critical working set of itself
or running programs could be put in page files to optimize RAM usage.

So what? The extra 30% (1.2GB) of RAM uncounted for, used by the OS
(or something else) is making my RAM available to programs ridiculously
lower, and if I had a bigger page file, it would account for some
incredible page-outs. That is the root of the problem.

P.S. I have experienced ZERO disk-thrashing, with the exception of
software updates and defragmenting.


--
Anfy

Rather than theorizing why not just make a recommended size page file and
see if the problem goes away? If it doesn't then go back to the 32 MB page
file, no harm done.

--
Kerry Brown
MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
http://vistahelpca.blogspot.com/

On Aug 8, 8:16*am, Anfy wrote:
Mark Veldhuis;798720 Wrote:


At that point Vista is giving me frequent memory low warnings, and
Firefox crashed a couple of times. *Shouldn't Superfetch free up RAM
then?

I guarantee that if you set your virtual memory to the proper amount,
those warnings will go away.

If you persist in keeping it at its lowest settings, don't cry when
you run into problems.

I have 3gigs of memory on this machine and it idles at 21%. When I
had 1 gig - two days ago - it idled at 40% (I've added some startup
programs since adding the RAM, though). Normal usage, it sits around
40%. Highest I've seen since adding the extra RAM has been 70%

To make a long story short, there are lots of applications which want to
access pagefile memory instead of RAM.
On the contrary, some applications try to use only the RAM instead of
pagefile memory.

so, even though you have a lot of available space of physical RAM, some
application will still try to fit into pagefile (like photoshop for
example)

maybe the google earth is the one of them those who need to fit in
pagefile memory.

and lot of musical-sampler applications really need actually RAM
instead of pagefile
so that it can be much quicker response/access time. (about x30-x50)
in that case, those applications will not put their cache files in
pagefile eventhough there are lot of available space in there.
they will show you "not enough memory" message if the physical RAM is
full.


--
chongjee