"Ian D" wrote:


"david manvell" wrote in message
news
I'm having some memory use or performance issues I think. Let me try to
explain.

I have a fairly powerful desktop with decent hardware all around. System
specs:

Dell Precision 670 Workstation
Running Windows Vista Ultimate x64.
All latest service packs etc.
2 Xeon CPUs 3.2GHz (2 logical processors each). So 4 logical processors
each
running at 3.2GHz
6Gigs ram (2GB+2GB+1GB+1GB) DDR2-400 Registered ECC Memory Module.
2 Ultra320 SCSI controller and drives
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT (512 MB) video card running two 24" monitors.

My Windows Experience Index scores:
Processor: 5.0
Memory (RAM): 4.7
Graphics: 5.9
Gaming graphics: 5.9
Primary hard disk: 5.9


The reason for your low CPU and RAM scores is because your
machine is built on server and workstation specs, rather than general
use desktop specs.

The Xeon CPU's will not rate as high as Core 2 CPU's at the same
speeds. My 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo rates at 5.3 in Vista Ultimate 64.
The Xeons will shine at Autocad, Photoshop, etc., but will not
perform as well at gaming, etc.

Also, 800MHz RAM should score 5.6 or higher, but you are using
registered ECC, which is lowering the bandwidth. Error checking
reliability has a performance cost. That's why high speed gaming
PC's don't use buffered or ECC RAM. Very few desktop
motherboards take ECC RAM.

Do you know if I can change out the type of ram i have or the CPUs? or do I
have to use the ones they spec?

"david manvell" wrote in message
...


"Ian D" wrote:


"david manvell" wrote in message
news
I'm having some memory use or performance issues I think. Let me try to
explain.

I have a fairly powerful desktop with decent hardware all around.
System
specs:

Dell Precision 670 Workstation
Running Windows Vista Ultimate x64.
All latest service packs etc.
2 Xeon CPUs 3.2GHz (2 logical processors each). So 4 logical processors
each
running at 3.2GHz
6Gigs ram (2GB+2GB+1GB+1GB) DDR2-400 Registered ECC Memory Module.
2 Ultra320 SCSI controller and drives
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT (512 MB) video card running two 24" monitors.

My Windows Experience Index scores:
Processor: 5.0
Memory (RAM): 4.7
Graphics: 5.9
Gaming graphics: 5.9
Primary hard disk: 5.9


The reason for your low CPU and RAM scores is because your
machine is built on server and workstation specs, rather than general
use desktop specs.

The Xeon CPU's will not rate as high as Core 2 CPU's at the same
speeds. My 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo rates at 5.3 in Vista Ultimate 64.
The Xeons will shine at Autocad, Photoshop, etc., but will not
perform as well at gaming, etc.

Also, 800MHz RAM should score 5.6 or higher, but you are using
registered ECC, which is lowering the bandwidth. Error checking
reliability has a performance cost. That's why high speed gaming
PC's don't use buffered or ECC RAM. Very few desktop
motherboards take ECC RAM.

Do you know if I can change out the type of ram i have or the CPUs? or do
I
have to use the ones they spec?


Personally, I wouldn't change anything. You have a superior spec'd
high performance workstation, built for productivity and reliability,
(ECC RAM). It just doesn't match up with the way Vista calculates
it's performance index. Big deal!

You could upgrade to faster memory, but considering it's ECC RAM
and 6GB, that would not be worth the cost for what you would gain.
In actual usage, the CPU index difference between 5.0 and 5.9 would
hardly be noticed.

In my previous post I was explaining why your machine scored lower
in the indexes, not saying there was anything wrong with its specs.

"Mark H" wrote:

Initially, the amount of memory limits the WEI:
256MB limited to 1.0
500MB limited to 2.0
512MB limited to 2.9
704MB limited to 3.5
960MB limited to 3.9
1.5GB limited to 4.5
There are more, up to 5.9

Then comes bandwidth: MB/s
While you're CPU is fast, the memory may be bottlenecked when compared to
your CPU output.
WEI compares what the CPU can produce on the data bus to what the memory can
take in.

Lastly, latency:
Is your memory all working at the same speed? Or, are portions waiting for
the other sticks to catch up?
This is crucial when you have more than one stick: all memory should be
identical in it's ratings (even so much as made by the same manufacturer.)
If not, each stick will perform slightly differently and timings will be out
of alignment. Three of the four sticks will be waiting for the fourth. Do
you have the sticks in the right slots to support dual channel mode?

Go to: C:\Windows\Performance\WinSAT\DataStore
Open the most recent file with MS Word
Look for Memory Metrics.
I have a score here of 5.9
Memory Metrics: 9015
Memory: DDR2-800
Latency: 5 (Four matched 2GB sticks)

While I have 8GB memory, going further into the file I find a section
labeled Memory and it reports I only have 7GB. (See table above. I think
6GB is the limit for 5.9) If you recall, x86 machines are limited to about
3.2GB due to hardware addresses using the rest of 4GB. Either this happens
on a x64 machine also, or I have something else going on here. (My video
card shares 2GB.) Point is, you may have less memory available than you
think. Is it all available?

Go a little further in the file and find: System Memory Bandwidth:
This is comparing CPU and memory bandwidth.
I get 9308 MB/s (average)
Each CPU is producing 4650 MB/s (average)
I have 2 CPUs
Since the total CPU output is equal to the Memory Input, my current
bottleneck is my CPU.
CPU rating: 5.6
(Note: I have a dual core 3.2Ghz. Same speed as yours, less
cores.)

Looking at these metrics will tell you where your bottleneck is on your
computer resulting in the low rating.
I would suspect:
Memory not matched.
Memory in wrong slots for dual channel.
CPU bandwidth memory bandwidth


I reran the windows experience index after installing this latest video card
and saw some improvement. I'm now at 5.0 with processors and 5.9 with
everything else. I'm surprised changing the video card affted it.
Unfortunately I am still seeing low framerates in World of Warcraft.

Here is my assesment file:

http://members.cox.net/dmanvell/2008...ent.WinSAT.xml

I will look and see what the rating is on all my ram. Iirc I originally had
2 one gig ram sticks and then I went and added 2 two gig ram sticks (For a
total of 6). I think all the memory in this computer is 400 speed. Can you
put faster memory in a computer? Or will it slow it down to the same speed as
the others? Can these CPUs be changed out?

Personally, I wouldn't change anything. You have a superior spec'd
high performance workstation, built for productivity and reliability,
(ECC RAM). It just doesn't match up with the way Vista calculates
it's performance index. Big deal!

You could upgrade to faster memory, but considering it's ECC RAM
and 6GB, that would not be worth the cost for what you would gain.
In actual usage, the CPU index difference between 5.0 and 5.9 would
hardly be noticed.

In my previous post I was explaining why your machine scored lower
in the indexes, not saying there was anything wrong with its specs.






This whole thing started actually because of World of Warcraft. I originally
had a video card NVIDIA 8800 GT and was not getting the best framerates when
playing. usually somewhere around 15-30 while running 1920x1200 with all
stuff turned on high. So i went and got a better video card NVIDIA 9800 GX2.
No improvement. I called NVIDIA and the said its most likely the wrong card
as WoW doesn't play well with SLI and those two GPUs are slaved together via
SLI. they suggested i get a single GPU video card. So returned those and got
a NVIDIA GTX 260. Still Now I'm gettign framerates of 20-35. Maybe a sliught
improvement but no where where i should be. Called NVIDIA and they said I
should be seeing a absolute minimum of 60-90 framerate.

We went over tons of stuff (Drivers and settings) and they can't find any
reason that my framerate is so slow. They said even with my original card or
the 9800 I should of had faster. They suspect something is wrong in Windows
itself. Something is bottlenecking it. They suggested uninstalling anything
in windows I don't really need and just doing a general performance
improvement on the whole system and if that did not work to reinstall windows
as it's been installed for several years now and maybe something has just
snuck in there that's bottlenecking it.

"david manvell" wrote in message
...
Personally, I wouldn't change anything. You have a superior spec'd
high performance workstation, built for productivity and reliability,
(ECC RAM). It just doesn't match up with the way Vista calculates
it's performance index. Big deal!

You could upgrade to faster memory, but considering it's ECC RAM
and 6GB, that would not be worth the cost for what you would gain.
In actual usage, the CPU index difference between 5.0 and 5.9 would
hardly be noticed.

In my previous post I was explaining why your machine scored lower
in the indexes, not saying there was anything wrong with its specs.






This whole thing started actually because of World of Warcraft. I
originally
had a video card NVIDIA 8800 GT and was not getting the best framerates
when
playing. usually somewhere around 15-30 while running 1920x1200 with all
stuff turned on high. So i went and got a better video card NVIDIA 9800
GX2.
No improvement. I called NVIDIA and the said its most likely the wrong
card
as WoW doesn't play well with SLI and those two GPUs are slaved together
via
SLI. they suggested i get a single GPU video card. So returned those and
got
a NVIDIA GTX 260. Still Now I'm gettign framerates of 20-35. Maybe a
sliught
improvement but no where where i should be. Called NVIDIA and they said I
should be seeing a absolute minimum of 60-90 framerate.

We went over tons of stuff (Drivers and settings) and they can't find any
reason that my framerate is so slow. They said even with my original card
or
the 9800 I should of had faster. They suspect something is wrong in
Windows
itself. Something is bottlenecking it. They suggested uninstalling
anything
in windows I don't really need and just doing a general performance
improvement on the whole system and if that did not work to reinstall
windows
as it's been installed for several years now and maybe something has just
snuck in there that's bottlenecking it.


I'm confused. Are you talking about the Dell Xeon workstation with
64 bit Vista Ultimate, in your post of Oct 18, or a different machine.
WoW is a game that's more GPU than CPU intensive. On the other
hand, flight sims such as MS FSX are very CPU intensive. FSX
would thrive on your two dual core Xeons.

I'm confused. Are you talking about the Dell Xeon workstation with
64 bit Vista Ultimate, in your post of Oct 18, or a different machine.
WoW is a game that's more GPU than CPU intensive. On the other
hand, flight sims such as MS FSX are very CPU intensive. FSX
would thrive on your two dual core Xeons.

yes same system. After work the work applications get turned off and then
it's time to moonfire some mobs. Just hard to do so with a lousy frmaerate.
that's why NVIDIA (Video card manufacture) is confused. those games are very
GPS demanding and for me to have one of the most powerful video cards out
there and to still be getting really bad frame rates, they suspect something
is wrong with my system.

"david manvell" wrote in message
...


"Mark H" wrote:

Initially, the amount of memory limits the WEI:
256MB limited to 1.0
500MB limited to 2.0
512MB limited to 2.9
704MB limited to 3.5
960MB limited to 3.9
1.5GB limited to 4.5
There are more, up to 5.9

Then comes bandwidth: MB/s
While you're CPU is fast, the memory may be bottlenecked when compared
to
your CPU output.
WEI compares what the CPU can produce on the data bus to what the memory
can
take in.

Lastly, latency:
Is your memory all working at the same speed? Or, are portions waiting
for
the other sticks to catch up?
This is crucial when you have more than one stick: all memory should be
identical in it's ratings (even so much as made by the same
manufacturer.)
If not, each stick will perform slightly differently and timings will be
out
of alignment. Three of the four sticks will be waiting for the fourth.
Do
you have the sticks in the right slots to support dual channel mode?

Go to: C:\Windows\Performance\WinSAT\DataStore
Open the most recent file with MS Word
Look for Memory Metrics.
I have a score here of 5.9
Memory Metrics: 9015
Memory: DDR2-800
Latency: 5 (Four matched 2GB sticks)

While I have 8GB memory, going further into the file I find a section
labeled Memory and it reports I only have 7GB. (See table above. I think
6GB is the limit for 5.9) If you recall, x86 machines are limited to
about
3.2GB due to hardware addresses using the rest of 4GB. Either this
happens
on a x64 machine also, or I have something else going on here. (My video
card shares 2GB.) Point is, you may have less memory available than you
think. Is it all available?

Go a little further in the file and find: System Memory Bandwidth:
This is comparing CPU and memory bandwidth.
I get 9308 MB/s (average)
Each CPU is producing 4650 MB/s (average)
I have 2 CPUs
Since the total CPU output is equal to the Memory Input, my current
bottleneck is my CPU.
CPU rating: 5.6
(Note: I have a dual core 3.2Ghz. Same speed as yours, less
cores.)

Looking at these metrics will tell you where your bottleneck is on your
computer resulting in the low rating.
I would suspect:
Memory not matched.
Memory in wrong slots for dual channel.
CPU bandwidth memory bandwidth


I reran the windows experience index after installing this latest video
card
and saw some improvement. I'm now at 5.0 with processors and 5.9 with
everything else. I'm surprised changing the video card affted it.
Unfortunately I am still seeing low framerates in World of Warcraft.

Here is my assesment file:

http://members.cox.net/dmanvell/2008...ent.WinSAT.xml

I will look and see what the rating is on all my ram. Iirc I originally
had
2 one gig ram sticks and then I went and added 2 two gig ram sticks (For a
total of 6). I think all the memory in this computer is 400 speed. Can you
put faster memory in a computer? Or will it slow it down to the same speed
as
the others? Can these CPUs be changed out?


Pertinent details:
Your video card is now processing what your CPU was doing for graphics. This
relieves both CPU and main memory, but not your data bus.

VideoMemBandwidth = 41599 MB/s

Your memory is reporting only 4 GB available. Like me, your video card is
eating 2GB of shared memory. I thought this would lower your memory score,
but it did not.

Memory:
Bandwidth = 3640 MB/s (Mine was 9015 @ 800Mhz)
Total Physical
Size 6GB
Bytes 6372450304
AvailablePhysical
Size 4GB
Bytes 4610347008

CPU:
Bandwidth = 3505 MB/s (Mine was 9308 and gets a 5.6 rating)
Now this one is a little perplexing because WEI only tests each CPU, not
each core, and the information that leaves the CPU (actually hits the data
bus) is far less than what the individual cores are capable of. I hope that
makes sense. Based on this, I'm not sure I'd give this score a lot of
credence.

Disk Drive:
Bandwidth = 108 MB/s

Video:
SharedSystemMemory 2145648640

I would check your motherboard manual to see if you can support faster
memory, but likely not. If it can, keep in mind, all your memory will run at
the slowest rated stick. Your video card far outpowers your CPU, so check
nVidia and Blizzard sites for specific patches related to World of Warcraft.
(Your drivers appear up-to-date.) No matter how fast your video card is, the
data must eventually hit the data bus in some form and that will not be
faster than your FSB or disk drive. (So your CPU doesn't have to do all the
graphics calculations, but whatever is being calculated must be sent to the
video card and RAM.)

I think your ratings are stellar. As Ian pointed out, you are setup as a
server. To get the scores higher is going to cost you a motherboard, CPU and
memory change. Not sure it's worth it for a number. You will have to decide
if it's worth the additional frames/sec. But, if it's not stuttering, what's
the point.