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Windows Vista File Management Issues or questions in relation to Vista's file management. (microsoft.public.windows.vista.file_management) |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
Gosh I can tell my first post was hard to understand. I was COUNTING on the
space being a character. I expected ALL the 2009space folders to be before the 2009dash folders. That is why I consistently named the ones I wanted to separate with a space and the others with a dash . To see if I had made some mistake in that I tried Agent Ransack. Agent Ransack worked, it put the folders 2009space all to together and the 2009dash together. You are probably right there is not way to fix Windows behavior. But you are wrong Windows behavior is broken. "Ken Blake, MVP" wrote: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:25:01 -0700, chasgl wrote: My sweety and I take pictures and store them in folders. I label mine like this 2009 09 22. My sweety does 2009-09-22. We figured that way they would appear by date and each of ours would be separate. But the order comes out like this 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel a bunch of other folders 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt . . . 2009-09-14 Lemgo 2009-09-23 Austin Property 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C So first are some with 2009space etc then some 2009- etc then some 2009space etc Why would this strange thing happen? You call it strange, but it's exactly what I would expect. You are apparently expecting that both the space and hyphen will be ignored, but that's not the case for either. A space is not the absence of a character, it's a specific character, and it's the character that's sorted to the top of the list. The hyphen comes later in the sort order, before the letters and numbers. Any way to fix it? You can't "fix" the Windows behavior, because there's nothing wrong with it. But you can rename the files to make them more consistent. -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
That's an excellent suggestion thanks. I had checked that article already. It doesn't explain the behavior. Thanks, Chas "R. C. White" wrote: Hi, Chas. You might find some insight into the sorting algorithm in this KB article: The sort order for files and folders whose names contain numerals is different in Windows Vista, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003 than it is in Windows 2000 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/319827 Since I don't have the problem myself, I haven't studied this thoroughly, but It should answer some questions for you. RC -- R. C. White, CPA San Marcos, TX Microsoft Windows MVP Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64 |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
That's an excellent suggestion thanks. I had checked that article already. It doesn't explain the behavior. Thanks, Chas "R. C. White" wrote: Hi, Chas. You might find some insight into the sorting algorithm in this KB article: The sort order for files and folders whose names contain numerals is different in Windows Vista, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003 than it is in Windows 2000 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/319827 Since I don't have the problem myself, I haven't studied this thoroughly, but It should answer some questions for you. RC -- R. C. White, CPA San Marcos, TX Microsoft Windows MVP Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64 |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
chasgl wrote:
Gosh I can tell my first post was hard to understand. I was COUNTING on the space being a character. I expected ALL the 2009space folders to be before the 2009dash folders. That is why I consistently named the ones I wanted to separate with a space and the others with a dash . To see if I had made some mistake in that I tried Agent Ransack. Agent Ransack worked, it put the folders 2009space all to together and the 2009dash together. You are probably right there is not way to fix Windows behavior. But you are wrong Windows behavior is broken. I agree with you, chasgl. Windows behavior is broken. And it's still broken under Windows-7 (32-bit). I just created/named various folders similar to your convention. As a test. They do not sort in a logical manner. There is probably a way to fool Windows to be consistent. I will leave that up to you to try and discover. Good luck. Net_blue "Ken Blake, MVP" wrote: [snip] You can't "fix" the Windows behavior, because there's nothing wrong with it. But you can rename the files to make them more consistent. -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
chasgl wrote:
Gosh I can tell my first post was hard to understand. I was COUNTING on the space being a character. I expected ALL the 2009space folders to be before the 2009dash folders. That is why I consistently named the ones I wanted to separate with a space and the others with a dash . To see if I had made some mistake in that I tried Agent Ransack. Agent Ransack worked, it put the folders 2009space all to together and the 2009dash together. You are probably right there is not way to fix Windows behavior. But you are wrong Windows behavior is broken. I agree with you, chasgl. Windows behavior is broken. And it's still broken under Windows-7 (32-bit). I just created/named various folders similar to your convention. As a test. They do not sort in a logical manner. There is probably a way to fool Windows to be consistent. I will leave that up to you to try and discover. Good luck. Net_blue "Ken Blake, MVP" wrote: [snip] You can't "fix" the Windows behavior, because there's nothing wrong with it. But you can rename the files to make them more consistent. -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
On the other hand. Changing the setting to the other sort behavior does fix this problem in Vista. So I'll do without numerical sorting since it doesn't work and use the old style which does. Thanks, chas "R. C. White" wrote: Hi, Chas. You might find some insight into the sorting algorithm in this KB article: The sort order for files and folders whose names contain numerals is different in Windows Vista, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003 than it is in Windows 2000 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/319827 Since I don't have the problem myself, I haven't studied this thoroughly, but It should answer some questions for you. RC -- R. C. White, CPA San Marcos, TX Microsoft Windows MVP Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64 "chasgl" wrote in message ... Since the space is the lowest value we were counting on it ALWAYS being sorted first. What is actually happening is that it is SOMETIMES being sorted first. I must have been unclear with my post. The list starts out with the spaces first then it puts the dashes in the list and the spaces last. It certainly matches the definition of strange. If you are right that spaces should always be first the it also matches the definition of broken. Thanks for trying to help. Chas "Richard G. Harper" wrote: That strange thing would happen because dashes, spaces and other punctuation marks in file or folder names are alphabetized as well as letters and numbers. If you check a chart of character codes you'll find that a blank space is the lowest possible character code and therefore will always be sorted to the top of a list. This has been the way it has always worked in Windows. It can't be "fixed" because it's not "broken". "chasgl" wrote in message ... My sweety and I take pictures and store them in folders. I label mine like this 2009 09 22. My sweety does 2009-09-22. We figured that way they would appear by date and each of ours would be separate. But the order comes out like this 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel a bunch of other folders 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt . . . 2009-09-14 Lemgo 2009-09-23 Austin Property 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C So first are some with 2009space etc then some 2009- etc then some 2009space etc Why would this strange thing happen? Any way to fix it? Thanks, Chas |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
"chasgl" wrote in message ... My sweety and I take pictures and store them in folders. I label mine like this 2009 09 22. My sweety does 2009-09-22. We figured that way they would appear by date and each of ours would be separate. But the order comes out like this 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel a bunch of other folders 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt . . . 2009-09-14 Lemgo 2009-09-23 Austin Property 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C So first are some with 2009space etc then some 2009- etc then some 2009space etc Why would this strange thing happen? Any way to fix it? Thanks, Chas It maybe caused by support for 8dot3 naming convention. 8dot3 Name as the appear in Explorer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~3 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~4 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20E603~1 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~1.ALI 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.BRE 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.MAT 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~4 2009-09-14 Lemgo 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20BB6C~1 2009-09-23 Austin Property 8dot3 naming convention goes back to the days of DOS. 8 letters (filename) dot (separator) 3 letters (file extension). It's there to support old programs that still use the 8dot3 naming convention to find files. For whatever reason Explorer maybe using the 8dot3 naming convention to sort the directories. You can turn it off. How to Disable the 8.3 Name Creation on NTFS Partitions http://support.microsoft.com/kb/121007 1. Start Regedt32.exe and locate the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\FileSystem 2. Select the NtfsDisable8dot3NameCreation entry. NOTE: By default, the value for this entry is set to 0. 3. On the Edit menu, click DWORD. Type a value of 1 in the Data field. 4. Click OK and then quit Regedt32. 5. Quit Windows NT and turn off your computer. 6. Restart your computer and Windows NT. As the KB notes, this works only for file or directory created after the registry change and reboot. |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
Fascinating suggestion. I'm not sure why explorer would use the 8.3 or why switching to alpha sort instead of numerical sort would affect the outcome. But the symptoms sure match. Thanks, Chas "Tae Song" wrote: "chasgl" wrote in message ... My sweety and I take pictures and store them in folders. I label mine like this 2009 09 22. My sweety does 2009-09-22. We figured that way they would appear by date and each of ours would be separate. But the order comes out like this 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel a bunch of other folders 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt . . . 2009-09-14 Lemgo 2009-09-23 Austin Property 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C So first are some with 2009space etc then some 2009- etc then some 2009space etc Why would this strange thing happen? Any way to fix it? Thanks, Chas It maybe caused by support for 8dot3 naming convention. 8dot3 Name as the appear in Explorer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~3 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~4 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20E603~1 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~1.ALI 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.BRE 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.MAT 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~4 2009-09-14 Lemgo 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20BB6C~1 2009-09-23 Austin Property 8dot3 naming convention goes back to the days of DOS. 8 letters (filename) dot (separator) 3 letters (file extension). It's there to support old programs that still use the 8dot3 naming convention to find files. For whatever reason Explorer maybe using the 8dot3 naming convention to sort the directories. You can turn it off. How to Disable the 8.3 Name Creation on NTFS Partitions http://support.microsoft.com/kb/121007 1. Start Regedt32.exe and locate the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\FileSystem 2. Select the NtfsDisable8dot3NameCreation entry. NOTE: By default, the value for this entry is set to 0. 3. On the Edit menu, click DWORD. Type a value of 1 in the Data field. 4. Click OK and then quit Regedt32. 5. Quit Windows NT and turn off your computer. 6. Restart your computer and Windows NT. As the KB notes, this works only for file or directory created after the registry change and reboot. |
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Funny alphabetation in Windows explorer
Fascinating suggestion. I'm not sure why explorer would use the 8.3 or why switching to alpha sort instead of numerical sort would affect the outcome. But the symptoms sure match. Thanks, Chas "Tae Song" wrote: "chasgl" wrote in message ... My sweety and I take pictures and store them in folders. I label mine like this 2009 09 22. My sweety does 2009-09-22. We figured that way they would appear by date and each of ours would be separate. But the order comes out like this 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel a bunch of other folders 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt . . . 2009-09-14 Lemgo 2009-09-23 Austin Property 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C So first are some with 2009space etc then some 2009- etc then some 2009space etc Why would this strange thing happen? Any way to fix it? Thanks, Chas It maybe caused by support for 8dot3 naming convention. 8dot3 Name as the appear in Explorer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~3 2009 08 27 Near Ali and Saida's mostly biking 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~4 2009 08 28 Saida and Ali return Arc de Triumph and Tour Effel 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20E603~1 2009 08 29 Sacre-coer 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 200908~1.ALI 2009 08 30. Vaux-Le-Vicomte. Ali+M+C 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.BRE 2009-01-04. Dhyana-Terri in town.breakfast 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~1.MAT 2009-02-27. Party-Selim.Saida,Ali.Dan.Matt 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 2009-0~4 2009-09-14 Lemgo 10/05/2009 04:51 AM DIR 20BB6C~1 2009-09-23 Austin Property 8dot3 naming convention goes back to the days of DOS. 8 letters (filename) dot (separator) 3 letters (file extension). It's there to support old programs that still use the 8dot3 naming convention to find files. For whatever reason Explorer maybe using the 8dot3 naming convention to sort the directories. You can turn it off. How to Disable the 8.3 Name Creation on NTFS Partitions http://support.microsoft.com/kb/121007 1. Start Regedt32.exe and locate the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\FileSystem 2. Select the NtfsDisable8dot3NameCreation entry. NOTE: By default, the value for this entry is set to 0. 3. On the Edit menu, click DWORD. Type a value of 1 in the Data field. 4. Click OK and then quit Regedt32. 5. Quit Windows NT and turn off your computer. 6. Restart your computer and Windows NT. As the KB notes, this works only for file or directory created after the registry change and reboot. |