Ted Landry wrote:
Scott wrote:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
that's a classic insider quote. love it!

just hope the newbies that still top-post, and then get upset if you try
and correct them will figure it out... probably not.
"oldbies" in the microsoft* newsgroups do it constantly and many get
****ed off when they read my sig.....

yeah, much of it is because they are still clinging to outlook as their
email program and microsoft choose the wrong default behavior for
newsgroups in outlook so they don't understand they are doing it wrong.

it's just another inept mistake by microsoft that ruins how a system
should work. for "email" top posting makes sense... since you are
usually dealing with only one author... but when you get into "groups",
you have to bottom post or it doesn't work.

so sad, ms is making fools of these newbies

This is getting a little creepy. There is just no end to the
foolishness in which you're willing to indulge, is there?
I'm beginning to think that you may be frankly psychotic, bipolar
perhaps, maybe paranoid schizophrenic. You're on heavy doses of
multiple drugs just to make it through the day, aren't you? I'd like to
think you could be helped, but personality disorders are notoriously
difficult to treat. If I'm wrong about the codeable psychiatric
diagnoses, there's still something very, very wrong with you.

Go away, you repulsive troll. We don't care where you go; just vanish.
It's not that anyone here is afraid to hear what you're saying. It's
just that you're a blathering fool with no more credibility than the
slugs in my garden.

Ron Miller wrote:

yeah, much of it is because they are still clinging to outlook as their
email program and microsoft choose the wrong default behavior for
newsgroups in outlook so they don't understand they are doing it wrong.

it's just another inept mistake by microsoft that ruins how a system
should work. for "email" top posting makes sense... since you are
usually dealing with only one author... but when you get into "groups",
you have to bottom post or it doesn't work.

so sad, ms is making fools of these newbies

This is getting a little creepy. There is just no end to the
foolishness in which you're willing to indulge, is there?
I'm beginning to think that you may be frankly psychotic, bipolar
perhaps, maybe paranoid schizophrenic. You're on heavy doses of
multiple drugs just to make it through the day, aren't you? I'd like to
think you could be helped, but personality disorders are notoriously
difficult to treat. If I'm wrong about the codeable psychiatric
diagnoses, there's still something very, very wrong with you.

Go away, you repulsive troll. We don't care where you go; just vanish.
It's not that anyone here is afraid to hear what you're saying. It's
just that you're a blathering fool with no more credibility than the
slugs in my garden.

not sure what most of your message is trying to convey, but at least you
know how to bottom-post, congrats Ron!

The transcripts are available he
http://iowaconsumercase.org/index.html

A pdf of the Allchin email is available the
http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/010807/PLEX_7264.pdf

I don't see how everybody lying their head off will improve things.

"Ted Landry" wrote in message ...
"Michael Jennings" wrote:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...61209135113443

At least he is retiring, so he'll finally be able to move up to a Mac
once he leaves. (probably one of the main reasons TO retire

The "direct quote" from the transcript is Richard Hagstrom, counsel for
plaintiff, making a statement about Exhibit 7264 - the Allchin email.
What is at your link is not the email, but the words of a lawyer arguing
against Microsoft - his selective quoting from Allchin's email.

Don't try and twist things. the ACTUAL quote is:

"I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft"

read it again, right from the transcript if you are unable to decipher
the original link.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/m...ves/110354.asp

At the link you furnished, Allchin *is* quoted directly as saying this:
"Taken out of context, this comment could be confusing. Let me set
the record straight: This email is nearly 3 years old, and I was being
purposefully dramatic in order to drive home a point. The point being
that we needed to change and change quickly. We did."

yes, and in that 3 years, Apple has become even stronger in comparison
to Window's Vista. MS is at a standstill, so everything in the OS world
points more and more to OSX as being the one Jim Allchin would purchase
today. MS has become the IBM of the late 70's, they are gridlocked and
cannot produce winning products for marketplace.

In order to appear to be truthful, I think you should try harder to avoid
loose speech in your evangelizing - if there is no full transcript you should
not state, "the full transcript is he" People might check.

I just use Facts, while you seem to be unable to state your case without
understanding what was actually said. So sad.

"Eric" wrote:

Questions:
1) Why are the many Mac users Posting within these Forums as you
repeatedly
Post the equal or very similar Post entirely bankrupt of morals and
specifically bankrupt for IT knowledge?

I'd guess they're posting as part of a "grass roots" campaign to get MS
users to consider Macs.

it's more that Apple users are part of the original computer or "PC"
revolution from the 70's, so they are doing as they always have,
"getting power to the people" without having an IT staff... The IBM PC
and Windows set the world back about 10 years, and those people that
still are attempting to use Windows are caught in the past since their
foundation is so rocky. Mac users are just trying to help them.

Actually, Mac people are some of the most savvy IT people around. They
have no respect for the status quo, they only want the best. So it
pushes MS out of the enterprise in most situation. The problem is the
people that want to have IT jobs know Mac people are 100% correct and it
scares them...

3) Apparently, since Windows Vista is the most IT advanced, and secure OS
within our world, the lonely Mac users demonstrate their jealously
secondary

No, Vista has a long way to go until it can be compared to OSX in terms
of security or being advanced enough for large IT departments. You are
forgetting OSX is far more battle tested in the field than any version
of Windows could ever hope to be. OSX and it's counterparts are what big
IT departments use for global security and reliable serving. Windows NT
and Vista just aren't cut out for these types of tasks.

to the IT fact that the Mac inferior architecture is near 20-years behind
technology; remains absent online security, while remaining an elementary
PnP
OS.

Except OSX and OSX server is the most widely deployed, most secure Unix
based OS in major use today. It even dwarfs Sun in the deployed
installed base 20 to 1. Yes, Sun is the kingpin in the Server space, but
that will change in the years to come.

4) If it is true that a Mac will run any and all applications, that alone
is
a self-testimony the Mac is the most in-secure OS within the market place.
The older applications are nothing other than hacker-happy applications
obviously making the Mac one absolutely in-secure OS!

Yes, if a Mac is running Windows in the background, "Windows" could
still be compromised, but OSX is built so strongly (root / admin are
separated unlike any Unix built) there is technically no way to get into
a Mac machine unless you are physically in front of it. Apple has built
the most secure OS available today (for the mass market) so it scares a
lot of Windows users since they know the end is near for their OS. VMS
was never built to be on world wide networks, 24/7/365... OSX was...
since the beginning.

That is the only real benefit I've heard of Vista, that is the vague idea
that it is supposed to be "more secure" than XP. I know very little however
regarding Macs so I don't know what they've done lately regarding security.
I have heard that Macs supposedly can run any software now that IBM PCs can
run, though the benefit initially from Macs was supposed to be that it can't
run any software and software was supposed to be harder to write for a Mac
to make it more secure and stable..

5) Do you not comprehend that IT technology is advancing; not reverting to
ancient times?

Yes, and now that Apple provides the lowest cost servers and most secure
OS, companies are moving to them in droves. Wal-Mart (of all companies)
is in love with OSX for example.

Hardware is certainly advancing, but as far as Vista is concerned, what is
so advanced, other than the idea that it is supposed to be more secure? I
haven't heard details on the security, and I don't consider the appearance
changes to be more advanced. I was not impressed with XP's green bubble
Start either and I currently run XP in Classic mode.

6) Question, why is Windows Vista currently being purchased by large
corporations as well as individual end users in record setting numbers?

Because corporations are already committed to using IBM PCs and MS server
software, and waited for the release of Vista to buy a batch of new PCs
which are all packaged with the OS.

Yes, because companies are still mistakenly buying into the "belief"
that you should only buy IBM, nothing else... BUT the fact is, they
could get rid of 70% of their IT staff if they would run the $$ numbers
and replace all their PCs with Macs. Now that Macs run all Windows
software, run OSX Server and replace exchange servers, this is now
possible, so it scares a LOT of IT folks since they know their days are
numbered.

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/

People think the iPod is revolutionizing the Music world which is true.
But what they don't yet realize is OSX Server will revolutionize the IT
department, just the same. No top tier company competes with iron like
this, especially on price, features and speed.

http://www.apple.com/xserve/

7) Yes, from coincidence, accidently, while 8-year old Vista was preparing
for RTM Release (during the Christmas Season) Mac experienced a sales
surge.
Today, that has concluded, for obvious reasons, our world desires the most
state-of-the -art OS known as Windows Vista.

Calling Vista "state-of-the-art" right now is like calling WinME a massive
technological improvement to Win98.

Correct, Vista is another kludge. MS better be working on a Unix based
OS which throws out all the other legacy code or game is OVER for them
in 10 years. Apple is going to trounce them.

8) There is a reason the military, nuclear submarines, NASA, and too many
others are using Windows Vista; not using the technology inferior Mac.
9) If you were not fully aware for the superiority within Windows Vista
(compared to Mac), your presence within these Forums would not exist,
other
than attempting learning the many benefits of Windows Vista user friendly
functionalities; and not spreading myth and rumor for self-promotion.

We all want to learn of the "many benefits" of Vista. What I've read of
them so far, half seem like drawbacks. For instance, I don't want the Run
option from the Start menu buried under Accessories, System Tools.. maybe
you should attempting learning some English.

Correct, they aren't using Vista yet, and probably won't for a few
years. The REASON they got caught with NT in the first place is Apple
was mis-managed for about 8 years in the middle 90's, now that they have
come back and stronger than Microsoft in most cases, MS is really under
the gun to dump the NT platform and start anew.

OSX, OSX Server and Macs are unbeatable, they are just too advanced at
this point in the game. Sure, there is a lot of old Windows equipment
and even older "poorly trained" IT people that are fearful of their
jobs. OSX makes them obsolete, just like the Car made Horse obsolete. I
kinda feel sorry for them, especially since Microsoft doesn't seem to be
"getting it", Bill Gates is retiring and MS is unorganized and not
making quality products.

10) For your personal needs, simply, Windows Vista merely is to technology
advanced for your academic level.

Vista is a resource hog, and Mac may be better for a lot of people depending
on their specific needs. I've never owned or worked on a computer that was
not IBM-compatible, or an OS that was not MS, but I'm not particularly
impressed with MS.

Correct, OSX is by far a more efficient system, it sips cpu cycles while
providing the most services of any OS sold today.

Question: How many times does it require a Mac user for re-reading the
same
Post before comprehending the Post content?

Instead of flaming the Mac supporter, maybe you could tell us what is so
great about Vista, and don't say if you get the premium version it includes
the Mahjong game that we could already get separately for years now..

Yes, as a general rule a Mac user will be more aware and experienced
with computer matters than a Windows user. You have to keep in mind Macs
come from the world center of computer development, so there is a lot of
technical, engineering types that use Macs. Windows comes from mainly a
"sea port", not much technical happens in the Washington area, so
Windows has always been a poor second fiddle to more advanced tasks,
products and users.

Will you make your response Post on Top; please do not remain a *bottom
feeder* making your responses on the Bottom;, strongly reflecting your
need
to bottom feed sucking air just as Apple and Mac demonstrate while never
cognizant that technology is advancing forward as Vista; not retreating
backwards as Mac, and a few others as the facade "rival group".

Ted, Please continue your Posting while learning the many benefits from
using Windows Vista while repeatedly demonstrating your incredible
deficient
IT knowledge. One day you will know fact from fiction; better yet, just
purchase Retail Vista as so many others have done, stop using that free
Beta
software.

No, no. I'm right on track, you just appear very scared of Apple. I know
why but it appears you are pretty clueless about what Apple has been
doing for the last 10 years. I encourage you to go ahead and move up to
a Mac, run OSX and you'll see why it's a gear head's dream.

Windows Vista
Become Part of The Legacy!

You don't like bottom posting? Many don't like top posting. Sure with
bottom posting you may have to scroll down past the post to start reading,
but if you're responding to that much stuff you can just snip what doesn't
apply. I prefer inline posting, where there is more than one specific point
to respond to.

Bottom posting is correct when you are talking with large groups, and
anyone might respond, today, this week or 2 years from now. Top posting
is the sure sign of someone that isn't very experienced in computing or
Usenet.

"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote:

Ted

Go to this website.. then scroll down to the two part Mac vs PC discussion..
you may learn something..

http://www.podtech.net/scobleshow/


Didn't learn anything new... sorry... just this simple quote, which
might be nice for you to read over since it's SO TRUE!

"What makes Apple better than Microsoft is that they implement their
features with superior fit and finish, faster and with fewer resources"

yep! if you want the best, you get a Mac, just like I have been saying.

"ChrisM" wrote:

Do you guys ever read your own posts on topics like this?
It's like reading messages by a bunch of kids!
My OS/Platform is better than yours! My dad is bigger than your dad...!

Basically MAC and PC are two very different platforms. They each have their
own strengths and weaknesses. No-one can deny that PC(in this case, I mean
Microsoft) has a much larger share, but that doesn't mean it is the better
platform for all applications. MAC is probably better at certain things,
especially very high powered graphical stuff, but that doesn't mean it is
the best choice for everything.
For goodness sake, just use the platform you want to, and accept the fact
that someone from the opposing 'camp' is unlikely to share your opinions!

chris, that's all nice and cute... but it doesn't get to the reason
these debates exist...

here is the situation:

the mac world, is pulling world society forward on a massive scale...
the first real pc, first color monitors, first floppies, first mouse
first laser printers, first networking, first web access, first digital
cameras, created the www, first to have wireless, first real mp3 player,
etc.

while the PC world, is really "the old IBM punchcard world", they are
concerned with keeping the status quo, they don't like change, they DO
like complexity, they like expensive support, poorly written code, loud,
poorly built computers, etc. they are concerned with "keeping people
down"......

which is the complete antithesis of what the "mac world" is trying to do.

SO you have conflict... what you see in a flame war is just that "flame".

it's two difference sides pulling on each other. is either side right?
no, of course not. but the fun thing about the Mac world is we are using
computers and techniques a PC user won't see for 3-10 years, we get to
do the fun stuff, create, explore and have the best tools while doing so.

pc users are kinda the "unconscious cogs of society", they typically
work at 9-5 jobs, are part of some corporate bureaucracy, have little
personal freedom and have no power "over" their computer, microsoft
controls "all" and they are fine with it. whereas mac users have total
control over their machines, and apple simply stays out of their way.

neither is right or wrong, it's just mac users pull society forward, and
pc users pull society back.

If he see a flame war as you suggest, we need to blame the OP of this
thread for starting the flame war.
The large cross posting of off topic by the OP in itself suggests a flame
war was desired from the beginning.
So you are seeing the desired outcome which really had little to do with any
information of substance.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


"Ted Landry" wrote in message
...
"ChrisM" wrote:

Do you guys ever read your own posts on topics like this?
It's like reading messages by a bunch of kids!
My OS/Platform is better than yours! My dad is bigger than your dad...!

Basically MAC and PC are two very different platforms. They each have
their
own strengths and weaknesses. No-one can deny that PC(in this case, I
mean
Microsoft) has a much larger share, but that doesn't mean it is the
better
platform for all applications. MAC is probably better at certain things,
especially very high powered graphical stuff, but that doesn't mean it is
the best choice for everything.
For goodness sake, just use the platform you want to, and accept the fact
that someone from the opposing 'camp' is unlikely to share your opinions!

chris, that's all nice and cute... but it doesn't get to the reason
these debates exist...

here is the situation:

the mac world, is pulling world society forward on a massive scale...
the first real pc, first color monitors, first floppies, first mouse
first laser printers, first networking, first web access, first digital
cameras, created the www, first to have wireless, first real mp3 player,
etc.

while the PC world, is really "the old IBM punchcard world", they are
concerned with keeping the status quo, they don't like change, they DO
like complexity, they like expensive support, poorly written code, loud,
poorly built computers, etc. they are concerned with "keeping people
down"......

which is the complete antithesis of what the "mac world" is trying to do.

SO you have conflict... what you see in a flame war is just that "flame".

it's two difference sides pulling on each other. is either side right?
no, of course not. but the fun thing about the Mac world is we are using
computers and techniques a PC user won't see for 3-10 years, we get to
do the fun stuff, create, explore and have the best tools while doing so.

pc users are kinda the "unconscious cogs of society", they typically
work at 9-5 jobs, are part of some corporate bureaucracy, have little
personal freedom and have no power "over" their computer, microsoft
controls "all" and they are fine with it. whereas mac users have total
control over their machines, and apple simply stays out of their way.

neither is right or wrong, it's just mac users pull society forward, and
pc users pull society back.

"Ted Landry" wrote in message
...
it's more that Apple users are part of the original computer or "PC"
revolution from the 70's, so they are doing as they always have,
"getting power to the people" without having an IT staff... The IBM PC
and Windows set the world back about 10 years, and those people that
still are attempting to use Windows are caught in the past since their
foundation is so rocky. Mac users are just trying to help them.

Actually, Mac people are some of the most savvy IT people around. They
have no respect for the status quo, they only want the best. So it
pushes MS out of the enterprise in most situation. The problem is the
people that want to have IT jobs know Mac people are 100% correct and it
scares them...

No, Vista has a long way to go until it can be compared to OSX in terms
of security or being advanced enough for large IT departments. You are
forgetting OSX is far more battle tested in the field than any version
of Windows could ever hope to be. OSX and it's counterparts are what big
IT departments use for global security and reliable serving. Windows NT
and Vista just aren't cut out for these types of tasks.

Except OSX and OSX server is the most widely deployed, most secure Unix
based OS in major use today. It even dwarfs Sun in the deployed
installed base 20 to 1. Yes, Sun is the kingpin in the Server space, but
that will change in the years to come.

Yes, if a Mac is running Windows in the background, "Windows" could
still be compromised, but OSX is built so strongly (root / admin are
separated unlike any Unix built) there is technically no way to get into
a Mac machine unless you are physically in front of it. Apple has built
the most secure OS available today (for the mass market) so it scares a
lot of Windows users since they know the end is near for their OS. VMS
was never built to be on world wide networks, 24/7/365... OSX was...
since the beginning.

Yes, and now that Apple provides the lowest cost servers and most secure
OS, companies are moving to them in droves. Wal-Mart (of all companies)
is in love with OSX for example.

Yes, because companies are still mistakenly buying into the "belief"
that you should only buy IBM, nothing else... BUT the fact is, they
could get rid of 70% of their IT staff if they would run the $$ numbers
and replace all their PCs with Macs. Now that Macs run all Windows
software, run OSX Server and replace exchange servers, this is now
possible, so it scares a LOT of IT folks since they know their days are
numbered.

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/

People think the iPod is revolutionizing the Music world which is true.
But what they don't yet realize is OSX Server will revolutionize the IT
department, just the same. No top tier company competes with iron like
this, especially on price, features and speed.

http://www.apple.com/xserve/

Correct, Vista is another kludge. MS better be working on a Unix based
OS which throws out all the other legacy code or game is OVER for them
in 10 years. Apple is going to trounce them.

Correct, they aren't using Vista yet, and probably won't for a few
years. The REASON they got caught with NT in the first place is Apple
was mis-managed for about 8 years in the middle 90's, now that they have
come back and stronger than Microsoft in most cases, MS is really under
the gun to dump the NT platform and start anew.

OSX, OSX Server and Macs are unbeatable, they are just too advanced at
this point in the game. Sure, there is a lot of old Windows equipment
and even older "poorly trained" IT people that are fearful of their
jobs. OSX makes them obsolete, just like the Car made Horse obsolete. I
kinda feel sorry for them, especially since Microsoft doesn't seem to be
"getting it", Bill Gates is retiring and MS is unorganized and not
making quality products.

Correct, OSX is by far a more efficient system, it sips cpu cycles while
providing the most services of any OS sold today.

Yes, as a general rule a Mac user will be more aware and experienced
with computer matters than a Windows user. You have to keep in mind Macs
come from the world center of computer development, so there is a lot of
technical, engineering types that use Macs. Windows comes from mainly a
"sea port", not much technical happens in the Washington area, so
Windows has always been a poor second fiddle to more advanced tasks,
products and users.

No, no. I'm right on track, you just appear very scared of Apple. I know
why but it appears you are pretty clueless about what Apple has been
doing for the last 10 years. I encourage you to go ahead and move up to
a Mac, run OSX and you'll see why it's a gear head's dream.

Bottom posting is correct when you are talking with large groups, and
anyone might respond, today, this week or 2 years from now. Top posting
is the sure sign of someone that isn't very experienced in computing or
Usenet.

That is mostly fluff, and attempting to say "my OS is better than yours",
while you don't really mention any more facts than the Vista guy. Instead
of boasting that Mac will replace IBM PCs, try explaining why. Compare
actual features, and remember that usability is very important. Remember
that while the next generation growing up may be more knowledgeable about
computers, they are also lazier and don't want to learn any more than they
need. Unless they are forced to learn your Mac OS in our school system,
they will probably stick with what they know, which is what their parents
have, which for most of them is IBM PCs.

In your attempt to boast that your system is "better", you mention what also
sounds like a negative, "there is technically no way to get into a Mac
machine unless you are physically in front of it." What if you WANT to get
into it remotely? If something needs to be changed in the middle of the
night, your IT guy has to drive in to the office? Who's going to fly the IT
guy in the corporate office in New York out to the computer in the Milwaukee
office?

You need to do some studying on analogies. The car did not make the horse
"obsolete". Horses are still alive today. They just don't exactly serve
the purpose they might have 150 years ago. I did see plenty of horse drawn
vehicles on the road just yesterday. Better yet, don't try to use
analogies, just state factual comparisons.

"Ted Landry" wrote in message
...
"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote:

Ted

Go to this website.. then scroll down to the two part Mac vs PC
discussion..
you may learn something..

http://www.podtech.net/scobleshow/


Didn't learn anything new... sorry... just this simple quote, which
might be nice for you to read over since it's SO TRUE!

"What makes Apple better than Microsoft is that they implement their
features with superior fit and finish, faster and with fewer resources"

yep! if you want the best, you get a Mac, just like I have been saying.

Another dumb generalization from the Mac guy. Any facts to back that up?

In article ,
"Roy Coorne" wrote:

MACS are for elitist brain-dead snobs that can't figure out that
they are using a platform with barely no support from anyone but
Apple.

If everyone used a MAC, we'd still be stuck in 1979.

Honu


Wake up, Honu!

The situation has changed fundamentally since SJ switched to Intel,
see, e. g.

http://screen-online.de/blog/archives/000475.php

Yes, Honu...

You need to learn/understand what is happening here. Apple is now the
primary leader of the PC market. Yes, there was a dark time around
1991-97 that Apple lost it's leadership of the PC movement, and that
allowed MS to begin to catch up.

Now, things are in reverse. Microsoft must downsize the company, get rid
of many of their products, fire an estimated 22,000 to stay competitive.
Vista is a true sign they aren't performing well. Microsoft stock has
taken a nose dive since Vista was released, the public now knows they
have released another market failure, almost as bad as the Zune.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT...=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Steve Ballmer will have to be fired before any real change can happen
for MS or your computer (those are the facts)

Macs (and just so you know, only idiots capitalize it as MAC) are by far
the machine / OS to have if you want the very best in computing. The Mac
software library is much more advanced than the Windows one, the
hardware is 4-9 years ahead of anything on the PC, and the prices are
the same as any of the top tier PC Vendors such as HP, DeLL, Gateway,
etc.

Apple is now the world's number 3 PC vendor, eclipsing Gateway this
month. Beating DeLL will take a little longer, Apple was last No. 1
around 1995. But since DeLL makes such poorly built products, it won't
be long before Apple is No. 2 (about 2 more years) then HP will be
pushed out in the 5-7 year time frame.

PC vendors are stuck since they only have Windows to rely on. OSX is the
OS to have if you are a "geek" a "power user" or just want to "have
fun", so those vendors have nothing to sell against a much stronger
competitor.

So look at a few of their 400+ products and you'll be quite shocked by
how advanced they are....

http://www.apple.com/imac/
http://www.apple.com/macmini/
http://www.apple.com/macpro/
http://www.apple.com/macbook/
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

It's kinda like looking at a year 2012 PC running Windows "Perspective'
or whatever they try and call it then.

-