http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Vista uses many advanced networking features that older routers may not
support. Basic connectivity should work in most cases but some of the
advanced networking features may need to be turned off or some parameters
changed. Try the test. The tests include some explanations of what is being
tested and why.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Papa" wrote in message
...
As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible
with a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's
operating system? I have a home network in which one computer is running
under Windows XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under
Linspire, and one is running under Vista. The only one that has
encountered any router problems is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
.. .
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Thanks for your response.

Some may not understand the meaning of terms like UPnP (Universal Plug and
Play ??), symmetric NATs (creation of a mapping based on source IP address
and port number as well as the destination IP address and port number ??) ,
and UGDs (Ulteo General Daemon ??). Does Microsoft and other organizations
involved in computer software and hardware development really expect the
average computer user to know what these terms mean and how to use them? I
can assure you, most (including me) do not.

This must change if networking for home users is to continue. Far too many
details are left dangling (with no help from the OS "HELP" function) -
forcing the user to do an inordinate amount of research.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible
with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under
Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
. ..
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Thank you. I tried the test. It was somewhat useful.


"Kerry Brown" *a*m wrote in message
...
Vista uses many advanced networking features that older routers may not
support. Basic connectivity should work in most cases but some of the
advanced networking features may need to be turned off or some parameters
changed. Try the test. The tests include some explanations of what is
being tested and why.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Papa" wrote in message
...
As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a
notebook or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be
compatible with a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any
computer's operating system? I have a home network in which one computer
is running under Windows XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running
under Linspire, and one is running under Vista. The only one that has
encountered any router problems is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

there is actually a more info link on the test page itself that
leads to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi.../moreinfo.mspx

the explanations there are pretty good.

what do you think?

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:50:07 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

Thanks for your response.

Some may not understand the meaning of terms like UPnP (Universal Plug and
Play ??), symmetric NATs (creation of a mapping based on source IP address
and port number as well as the destination IP address and port number ??) ,
and UGDs (Ulteo General Daemon ??). Does Microsoft and other organizations
involved in computer software and hardware development really expect the
average computer user to know what these terms mean and how to use them? I
can assure you, most (including me) do not.

This must change if networking for home users is to continue. Far too many
details are left dangling (with no help from the OS "HELP" function) -
forcing the user to do an inordinate amount of research.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
.. .
There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible
with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under
Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

What do I think? Well, the definitions are certainly there, and they are at
least described in non-technical terms. The problem is, there is really no
connection (pardon the pun) between the definitions and the implementation
of those definitions.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
there is actually a more info link on the test page itself that
leads to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi.../moreinfo.mspx

the explanations there are pretty good.

what do you think?

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:50:07 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

Thanks for your response.

Some may not understand the meaning of terms like UPnP (Universal Plug and
Play ??), symmetric NATs (creation of a mapping based on source IP address
and port number as well as the destination IP address and port number ??)
,
and UGDs (Ulteo General Daemon ??). Does Microsoft and other organizations
involved in computer software and hardware development really expect the
average computer user to know what these terms mean and how to use them? I
can assure you, most (including me) do not.

This must change if networking for home users is to continue. Far too many
details are left dangling (with no help from the OS "HELP" function) -
forcing the user to do an inordinate amount of research.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
. ..
There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a
notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible
with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's
operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under
Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one
is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router
problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
m...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

I was involved in the development of this, and I certainly feel your pain.
What you are describing is what we called the "So What" scenario, if I'm
understanding you correctly (i.e. "So What?" if UPnP is unsupported).

Obviously, we're a bunch of gearheads and it makes total sense to us (
8-) ). It would be very helpful feedback for going forward if you could
be very explicit about what you'd preferr to see, and maybe an example of
what you mean by "Connection between the definitions and the
implementation.."

This is pretty geeky stuff, and we wanted to make it understandable and
accessible, so we worked hard (Really!) trying to make it meaningful.

As to why we did this, and why a router might not work, here is the
abstract of a whitepaper I'm writing (but remember, the audience of the
whitepaper tends to be gearheads too, so it might confuse even more):

"Much of the current market of retail-grade Internet Gateway Devices
(Hereafter IGD's, aka NAT's, Routers, AP's) has grown and evolved during the
ascendancy of Windows XP. In this regard, Windows XP has become the "Gold
Standard" against which IGD's are measured. Changes in the networking
stack between Windows XP and Windows Vista expose bugs in router firmware
which were hitherto obscured. Online router testing is an easy and
lightweight method to allow vendors and consumers to ensure their IGD's work
within the scope of feature RFC's and are sufficiently robust."

RFC's (Request for comment) are the formal standards that define how the
internet works. Routers which are solidly RFC compliant have no trouble
with Vista.

A big problem multiplier is also with network adapter drivers, especially
wireless. There are a million places where a driver can be out - or on the
edge - of RFC compliance, which can expose or exacerbate a problem in a
router.

Cheers,

k.

"Papa" wrote in message
...
What do I think? Well, the definitions are certainly there, and they are
at least described in non-technical terms. The problem is, there is really
no connection (pardon the pun) between the definitions and the
implementation of those definitions.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
there is actually a more info link on the test page itself that
leads to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi.../moreinfo.mspx

the explanations there are pretty good.

what do you think?

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:50:07 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

Thanks for your response.

Some may not understand the meaning of terms like UPnP (Universal Plug
and
Play ??), symmetric NATs (creation of a mapping based on source IP
address
and port number as well as the destination IP address and port number ??)
,
and UGDs (Ulteo General Daemon ??). Does Microsoft and other
organizations
involved in computer software and hardware development really expect the
average computer user to know what these terms mean and how to use them?
I
can assure you, most (including me) do not.

This must change if networking for home users is to continue. Far too
many
details are left dangling (with no help from the OS "HELP" function) -
forcing the user to do an inordinate amount of research.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a
notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be compatible
with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's
operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under
Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and one
is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router
problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
om...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Thank you for your detailed response.

What I mean by "Connection between the definitions and the implementation"
is that knowing the definition of each technical term is unfortunately not
bridging the gap toward making networking operational. The software Wizards
built into an OS are far too often a flop in affording help for the user
because they only address the most common network problems. In many user
efforts, it turns out to be a long, tedious hit or miss task before the goal
of networking is finally accomplished. In short, there are too many protocol
variables required in networking, and too many procedures to follow.

In my view, a joint effort by network-related hardware and software
developers should be organized in order to simplify networking for future
computer users. Maybe this is already happening. I hope so.

"Karl Froelich [MS]" wrote in message
...
I was involved in the development of this, and I certainly feel your pain.
What you are describing is what we called the "So What" scenario, if I'm
understanding you correctly (i.e. "So What?" if UPnP is unsupported).

Obviously, we're a bunch of gearheads and it makes total sense to us (
8-) ). It would be very helpful feedback for going forward if you could
be very explicit about what you'd preferr to see, and maybe an example of
what you mean by "Connection between the definitions and the
implementation.."

This is pretty geeky stuff, and we wanted to make it understandable and
accessible, so we worked hard (Really!) trying to make it meaningful.

As to why we did this, and why a router might not work, here is the
abstract of a whitepaper I'm writing (but remember, the audience of the
whitepaper tends to be gearheads too, so it might confuse even more):

"Much of the current market of retail-grade Internet Gateway Devices
(Hereafter IGD's, aka NAT's, Routers, AP's) has grown and evolved during
the ascendancy of Windows XP. In this regard, Windows XP has become the
"Gold Standard" against which IGD's are measured. Changes in the
networking stack between Windows XP and Windows Vista expose bugs in
router firmware which were hitherto obscured. Online router testing is an
easy and lightweight method to allow vendors and consumers to ensure their
IGD's work within the scope of feature RFC's and are sufficiently robust."

RFC's (Request for comment) are the formal standards that define how the
internet works. Routers which are solidly RFC compliant have no trouble
with Vista.

A big problem multiplier is also with network adapter drivers, especially
wireless. There are a million places where a driver can be out - or on
the edge - of RFC compliance, which can expose or exacerbate a problem in
a router.

Cheers,

k.

"Papa" wrote in message
...
What do I think? Well, the definitions are certainly there, and they are
at least described in non-technical terms. The problem is, there is
really no connection (pardon the pun) between the definitions and the
implementation of those definitions.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
...
there is actually a more info link on the test page itself that
leads to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi.../moreinfo.mspx

the explanations there are pretty good.

what do you think?

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:50:07 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

Thanks for your response.

Some may not understand the meaning of terms like UPnP (Universal Plug
and
Play ??), symmetric NATs (creation of a mapping based on source IP
address
and port number as well as the destination IP address and port number
??) ,
and UGDs (Ulteo General Daemon ??). Does Microsoft and other
organizations
involved in computer software and hardware development really expect the
average computer user to know what these terms mean and how to use them?
I
can assure you, most (including me) do not.

This must change if networking for home users is to continue. Far too
many
details are left dangling (with no help from the OS "HELP" function) -
forcing the user to do an inordinate amount of research.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
m...
There are several pieces to the puzzle. Vista utilizes UPnP like
never before so if UPnP is not implemented properly, it could be an
issue. Vista doesn't like symmetric NATs. Even if the router fails
the IGD test, it may still work ok for some people.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:02 -0400, "Papa" wrote:

As you know, a router is an external device that is not part of a
notebook
or desktop computer. Can you explain why a router may not be
compatible
with
a Vista computer? Shouldn't any router work with any computer's
operating
system? I have a home network in which one computer is running under
Windows
XP, one is running under Ubuntu, one is running under Linspire, and
one is
running under Vista. The only one that has encountered any router
problems
is the one running under Vista.

"Barb Bowman" wrote in message
news:5cfk039lf30f30okkcggavttb4fq51mhnr@4ax. com...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/usi...d/default.mspx
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/