LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert. "Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since 1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are. We
TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not allowed to
post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything that is actually
found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there should be some way
for the users that send in feedback a way to see the status and update / add
comments but I don't think that making the Vista Connect portal a public
free for all would be a good thing either. I also think that it would
compromise the security and reliablity of a closed beta program. Microsoft
has it reasons for doing the things they do, but I don't think filing a
suggestion with a rant is the way to go about getting what you want done,
done. I think what you should do is contact Corey Snow on the Connect team
and voice your opinion with out the rant and see what he has to say. I have
been dealing with him on some issues for the past few days and he seems like
a good contact to go to with any suggestions, comments / concerns on
Connect. His rmail address is ). Also, I think it
is just like the Microsoft Certification tests, there has to be a ensured
level of security with the tests and also with millions of lines of
intellectual property that generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have been
done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make them out
to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes around e-mail the
alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista people are still there
contact them and give them legitimate reasons as to why you should be part
of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly
of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
"Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now
of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There
is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be
at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed for
a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize
it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping
on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
"

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

Tom--

I appreciate your post but--

"Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do" and a panoply of
them make no damn sense.

"We won't put our beta archived chats and our Beta Live meetings in one
place but we will allow them to be published."

"We will RTM October 25 internally but have hardly any articles on our
sites. We do have a 3rd grade level Product Guide that is absurd. It gives
two sentences to the major recovery mechanisms for Vista." It does little
to explain Volume Shadow Services under the hood. Dan Stevenson is ectopic
on MSDN blogs and with little tiny bits on the Beta groups chirping hereand
there. What's to stop him from getting one of his community writers to write
a comprehensive article or what's to stop him from doing it?

Again the thing is going out the door Oct 25 to enterprises as an RTM and no
service pack is going to rachet up functionality in Vista any more than it
has for XP. It will be plugging the usual never ending Windows security
vulnerabilties. UAC UAC UAC and they still will exist in IE. I see the UAC
team blog. It's not going to stop the usual Windows vulnerabilities.

There was no rant. It was straight up and factual. And I don't work for
them. I have evangelized for them and used my time to fix things for their
customers at no charge tirelessly on chats and ngs and forums as many people
have. BTW the support MSFT offers the public--let's nail it--it's
horrendous. It's contract Convergys of Ohio mostly in India with an accent
so thick you can't understand them. And they don't know Windows and Office
at a minimal level (most of them). We're not talking MSFT Research in India
caliber here. We're talking minimum waged butts in seats. My 2nd gen
Indian neighbor said there English is beyond eggregiously bad. She speaks
several Indian dialects and English. She said what those Convergys employees
outsourced in India speak is hardly English. I agree. They say "okay well."
Call 'em and tell them you don't have your admin account in XP./ They'll
tell you to format the box. That's kind of like someone having a sore
throat or some kind of Viral URI, and taking them out and shooting them.
They never heard of the safe mode admin non-deletable account or how to use
it. But MSFT christens them Tech Support because they are cheap. It's
about money and more money.

I've contacted Corey Snow and Nick White more than once. **Their arrogance
produced no reply***I did get a peep out of Nick once on here ( I can find
it) and it said nothing, but he carefully avoided responding specifically.
It's called "the wussie syncophant response." You get the same from your
government that wants to wire tap you and decide if what they're doing in
secret is good for you because they know what's best for Tom Ziegler. I
have a ton of email aliases at Redmond. Many of them are above responding.
They don't handle criticism well that is straight forward. BTW MSFT is
lying about turning over searches to the government and they met with them
June 1 and 2 to do just that. They lied for 9 months to their own
employees and Scoble blogged on it as did Mini Microsoft and many many
others.

They've been taken in the direction of more manipulative, more deviant, and
less transparent. Most of us can see through them. Look at their new
Sinofskyesque financial reporting that distorts figures.

"revenue that makes the company go." That revenue stream is working so that
nothing is provided to 500 million projected customers in 24 months
according to a MSFT provided slide I'm holding that will help them fix Vista
when it won't boot. OEM sales last quarter up 20%; retail down and those
customers are being abandoned as to the retail media that allows them to use
Win RE/startup repair. Don't fool yourself. You're not going to reach them
with hidden partitions or recovery discs any more than you reached a Repair
install with those modalities in XP.


For example, the subject that is more sensitive than wife beating to people
at Redmond is a simple one. It enrages them and they dance around it. I've
posted in detail here on it. OEM's aren't required to provide a real way to
fix XP or Vista. I attended a system builder presentation in May where the
presenter who was terrible compared to MSFT's usual quality ridiculed hard
working people who asked why the 300 name partner big boys didn't have to
provide anything decent to recover but they had to provide retail CDs or
DVDs in Vista for their customers. They guy said "When you guys (I'm not
one of them but I value them and know many who are dedicated and work very
hard) ship 50,000 boxes than you can have that break.

What the guy missed was that they were also talking about a reliable way to
repair a crashed no boot BSOD stop--not to mention that MSFT has missed the
boat on how Driver Verifier's inspection and deadlock detection can be
modified to prevent a significant amount of BSOD's in Vista and XP but
that's off topic and they are getting that info,

They did not provide ways to do repair installs in almost 100% or OEM
preinstalled XPs and they won't be in Vista for the less reliable--I've
tested it hundres of time Startup Repair in Win RE which has been scaled
down from its original ambition. If Fabricant Deep Freeze that was on
Eduardo Larueano's slides is in RC1 show me that Easter Egg Tom 'cause I
don't see it. What happened to ole Fabricant that they purchased the
licensing for in Vista. Apparently it's not seeing the light of day. But
it's on the Win RE Live Meeting slides.

I know what you're allowed to do. I read it when you did or before. And
when I hear so and so has their reasons--I'm hearing that from the
government in my country and they've flown security into the ground--yours
and mine. Watch it unravel in the next year. That strategy is based on a
bet that the center of people are ignorant no matter how materially
successful they are and it's working Read Tom Friedman's column in the NY
Times on how lack of oversight and collective apathy and ignorance of the
American people works.

ABC is going to air something billed as history shipped to 100,000 schools
that is total ignornace and distortion on Sunday and Monday. They will
probably back down a bit, but they thought they could do it based on the
huge degree of American ignorance and failure to read critically and demand
accounting.

Let's see:

MSFT has their reasons for what? I asked for bug access on Connect for the
public; I asked for the Beta chats to be posted in a central place, and I
asked for the Beta Live Meetings (it's a little late to open most of them)
to open up. And I asked for the Beta Live Meetings to be posted in a
central place as well.

I respect you. Your posts are very good and very useful but if you think
doing that is compromising Vista's beta program I resepectfully
think--hogwash. No way. Again the damn chats are ectopically and
metastatically on the public web. Why not make it easy. I can find them but
a lot of people can't.

Why not put them on Technet, MSDN and in an MSKB???

They put a number of issues for each milestone in an MSKB---why the hell not
the Beta chats and Live meetings to promote education?

There is no NDA according to Mr. Donnnelly more than once. Read his posts
since the Beta started on the Longhorn general Beta group. And Connect as
a portal offers a lot of people Betas that are totally inappropriate to
them. They offer tons of enterprise Betas to people who will never touch
some of the enterprise servers they are intended for who know MSFT's
software and what they make server wise inside out.

I specifically asked for access to the bug portion of Connect--they purport
the public gets it to provide meaningful testing. Baloney. They took the
Beta way wide adding people all spring. The public gets it like they have
every OS to seed sales. MSFT is about marketing mainly and the quality of
the products is always going to be secondary. I understand the level of
talent there. But that's the way it is. Steve Sinofsky has been great with
Office of having an elite, effete, condescending attitude toward the users
of Office forcing developers to dumb it down every version, cutting out a
lot of userful features. 2007 is no different. And he leaves features on
the floor when he does that good Office mavens have complained about for
years.

I have been very precise again and people are putting words in my mouth
about how MSFT could improve the learning experience for their customers and
they have dropped the ball. And the guy who intimated my proposal was
distracting them from code really has a "little golden book" vision of the
Redmond campus.We're talking a very complicated inter-relationship of a
couple thousand engineers on I don't know how many non-intuitively named
teams that you couldn't name (most) unless they spoonfed you the names. I've
seen lots of them and so have you. The name doesn't correlate with what
they do unless you're immersed in that campus culture and have been given
it.

Leaks?? How? How are giving the public access to bugs on Connect going to
be tantamount to leaaks of propitiary information like the forumla for Coca
Cola. Or the code that MSFT legal spent now what threatens to leap t $500
million in fines soon with the European union. MSFT threatening to hold up
Vista in Europe is just pathetically laughable. In your dreams. Talk about
biting off a big Redmond nose to spite a big Redmond face.

I didn't advocate making the world a Beta tester and I didn't advocate
having 27000 people show up anywhere like some goofball just tried to
distort while calling me "insane." LOL

I asked for open bug access on Connect. I asked that MSFT post all the links
to the archived Beta chats in one place so those people not on the Beta
could read them. That's a harmful leak? They're no the web in scattered
places and they were never in the territory of "can't be published" so why
the hell didn't MSFT put them in one place on a decently designed page?

I asked Nick White and Corey to try to make this happen. No reply.

Ed Bott's book is due out December, and I don't know how Ed gets his info in
detail. Someone has got to be helping him. It's not just coming from the
small amount MSFT has on their sites. I'm sure his book that has presold
over 900,000 will be it's usual high quality.

I was advocating public access to bugs. They purport disingenuously and
hypocritically that they really care what the unwashed public bugs. Some
of whom are more talented on many fronts than some of the TBTs from the
amazingly naive Windows inexperienced questions that come on those groups
from some people calling themselves MSN MVPs wow--.

Since they think so little of the public that they won't give them access to
the bugs on Connect, then why should the public spend painstaking time
screenshotting and setting up a good bug report the way all those videos
that are on Connect describe that they don't even get access to.

The bugs as I've said would indicate progress and everyone has a right to
know what they are going to fix and what not. Robert McLaws has pointed out
how badly the price structure is going to screw a family of 4 wanting Vista.
They want good money for the thing--but they aren't willing to be
transparent about the quality or the lack. And while Colin has provided
invaluable high quality help here, he's dead wrong that features haven't had
the hell cut out of them--they have.

There is a lot of settling for mediocrity on the Redmond campus with Windows
Vista and they are doing their best to mask what they cut.

I've seen all the clarification messages from Paul D. , Wendy, whomever.
I've also posted here several times that it's very clear and I understand
their reasoning. but they are disingenuous because I can start to list you
about 50 well know ezine publishers who work for publications who are highly
regarded at MSFT, invited to MSFT for inside briefings, considered a vital
part of the publicity machine by MSFT (and I don't want to give the
impression I'm demeaning them--I'm not--I value them, and depend on their
info. Some of them are MVPs also who have that day job--and talented
developers and Windows users.

One caveat is not to paste advanced info on the Beta newsgroups. The second
that something is posted it shows up on the web in ectopic, metastatic
locations. The warning went out that so and so might be banned from the Beta
forever until hell freezes over to quote the Eagles, but it doesn't happen
to these same people who are frequently invited to the Redmond campus, meet
with key people on the Beta, and get fed--maybe the expenses are paid by
MSFT at times.

Let me be clear about another group that breaks the rules set out by Paul
Donnelly, their orange badge from Volt "Wendy", and others. That would be
the MSDN blog members of the Vista teams who post a ton of good info, but
they don't give a rats ass about the Beta admins rules 'cause what they
gonna do--fire Joe Blow off the setup team who is an engineer who is making
setup? I don't think so. I can paste examples until the cows come home.
Steven Bink who has a nice site and follows MSFT well puts a lot of pastes
up from the Connect announcements and emials and newsgroup posts that have
been labled verboten. So does Mary Jo Foley.

I'm sure that both of them hold information that is given to them in
confidence, but follow their sites, and you'll see they post all the things
you just mentioned. I've seen them in both places Tom. On the groups and
on their sites at the same time. I've seen the same stuff on the MSFTie
MSDN and Technet blogs.

So the people those warnings apply to are Otto Schmidlap TBT I guess. That
dual standard originates in Seattle though, in a country full of them.

I just got a flame attack ( like I give two ****s) from some cyber nut for
asking for

1) The public to have better access to info via:

Access to Beta groups or at least their posting in a central place. Hell
they are ectopic on the web. Since the public can't access bugs (stupid just
consummately stupid of MSFT) than they should be able to access some of
what's not going to be fixed. I can show you my quesiton nailing down the
team members on the device chat asking them since Device Manager does not
truthfully validate whether a particular driver is corrupt if they are
going to fix it in Vista and my getting a suscinct "NO."

A follow up question that's appropriate is why the hell not? How many
Operating Systems does it take to fix the thing? It introed in Windows 95
and we've had five OS's since that one. I'm going to go out on a limb here
Tom, I think drivers are somewhat important. I'm funny that way. They have
improved Task Man and I wrote specific people for those features for three
years before that Beta--not that it hadany impact but I wanted locations and
definitons of processes there on theinterface and while it could be better
it's a nice step in the right direction.

My suggestions were not concerns for what I would be apart of. I think you
should look at my first 3 paragraphs again.

They were for what they do to the vast majority of their customers. The
only respect they have for them is for their money. They want it
transferred to Redmond. They don't want contact with them, and rarely
answer emails. If you don't know what Convergys of Ohio does--that's their
major PSS along with ocassionally Volt, Excel (not the Office app) and
other similar companies, and MSFT does not want to talk about them at
all--another "beat your wife" for the softies--then call and pose a few
routine Windows problems and watch yourself cringe--or use Office--they're
equally incompetent with both. If MSFT gave a damn about their customers
than they'd start exercising quality control on their PSS that clinically
resulted in improvement on the ground. That's non-existent and won't ever
be.

CH












"Tom Ziegmann" wrote in message
...
Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are.
We TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not
allowed to post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything
that is actually found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there
should be some way for the users that send in feedback a way to see the
status and update / add comments but I don't think that making the Vista
Connect portal a public free for all would be a good thing either. I also
think that it would compromise the security and reliablity of a closed
beta program. Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do, but I
don't think filing a suggestion with a rant is the way to go about getting
what you want done, done. I think what you should do is contact Corey Snow
on the Connect team and voice your opinion with out the rant and see what
he has to say. I have been dealing with him on some issues for the past
few days and he seems like a good contact to go to with any suggestions,
comments / concerns on Connect. His rmail address is
). Also, I think it is just like the Microsoft
Certification tests, there has to be a ensured level of security with the
tests and also with millions of lines of intellectual property that
generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have
been done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make
them out to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes around
e-mail the alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista people are
still there contact them and give them legitimate reasons as to why you
should be part of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly
of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
"Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are
closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard
for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn
right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about
getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the
door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what
they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other
bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working
there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up
for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now
of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There
is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then
view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on
Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be
at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a
lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of
feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed
for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you
can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who
want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize
it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping
on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release
dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays
a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone
working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are
and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more
than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into
the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1
at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain
when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

Tom,
you are probably the clearest and most rational poster I have seen in this
ng.


"Tom Ziegmann" wrote in message
...
Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are.
We TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not
allowed to post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything
that is actually found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there
should be some way for the users that send in feedback a way to see the
status and update / add comments but I don't think that making the Vista
Connect portal a public free for all would be a good thing either. I also
think that it would compromise the security and reliablity of a closed
beta program. Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do, but I
don't think filing a suggestion with a rant is the way to go about getting
what you want done, done. I think what you should do is contact Corey Snow
on the Connect team and voice your opinion with out the rant and see what
he has to say. I have been dealing with him on some issues for the past
few days and he seems like a good contact to go to with any suggestions,
comments / concerns on Connect. His rmail address is
). Also, I think it is just like the Microsoft
Certification tests, there has to be a ensured level of security with the
tests and also with millions of lines of intellectual property that
generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have
been done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make
them out to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes around
e-mail the alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista people are
still there contact them and give them legitimate reasons as to why you
should be part of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly
of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
"Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are
closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard
for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn
right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about
getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the
door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what
they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other
bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working
there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up
for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now
of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There
is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then
view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on
Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be
at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a
lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of
feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed
for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you
can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who
want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize
it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping
on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release
dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays
a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone
working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are
and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more
than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into
the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1
at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain
when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

Tom--

I appreciate your post but--

"Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do" and a panoply of
them make no damn sense.

"We won't put our beta archived chats and our Beta Live meetings in one
place but we will allow them to be published."

"We will RTM October 25 internally but have hardly any articles on our
sites. We do have a 3rd grade level Product Guide that is absurd. It gives
two sentences to the major recovery mechanisms for Vista." It does little
to explain Volume Shadow Services under the hood. Dan Stevenson is ectopic
on MSDN blogs and with little tiny bits on the Beta groups chirping hereand
there. What's to stop him from getting one of his community writers to write
a comprehensive article or what's to stop him from doing it?

Again the thing is going out the door Oct 25 to enterprises as an RTM and no
service pack is going to rachet up functionality in Vista any more than it
has for XP. It will be plugging the usual never ending Windows security
vulnerabilties. UAC UAC UAC and they still will exist in IE. I see the UAC
team blog. It's not going to stop the usual Windows vulnerabilities.

There was no rant. It was straight up and factual. And I don't work for
them. I have evangelized for them and used my time to fix things for their
customers at no charge tirelessly on chats and ngs and forums as many people
have. BTW the support MSFT offers the public--let's nail it--it's
horrendous. It's contract Convergys of Ohio mostly in India with an accent
so thick you can't understand them. And they don't know Windows and Office
at a minimal level (most of them). We're not talking MSFT Research in India
caliber here. We're talking minimum waged butts in seats. My 2nd gen
Indian neighbor said there English is beyond eggregiously bad. She speaks
several Indian dialects and English. She said what those Convergys employees
outsourced in India speak is hardly English. I agree. They say "okay well."
Call 'em and tell them you don't have your admin account in XP./ They'll
tell you to format the box. That's kind of like someone having a sore
throat or some kind of Viral URI, and taking them out and shooting them.
They never heard of the safe mode admin non-deletable account or how to use
it. But MSFT christens them Tech Support because they are cheap. It's
about money and more money.

I've contacted Corey Snow and Nick White more than once. **Their arrogance
produced no reply***I did get a peep out of Nick once on here ( I can find
it) and it said nothing, but he carefully avoided responding specifically.
It's called "the wussie syncophant response." You get the same from your
government that wants to wire tap you and decide if what they're doing in
secret is good for you because they know what's best for Tom Ziegler. I
have a ton of email aliases at Redmond. Many of them are above responding.
They don't handle criticism well that is straight forward. BTW MSFT is
lying about turning over searches to the government and they met with them
June 1 and 2 to do just that. They lied for 9 months to their own
employees and Scoble blogged on it as did Mini Microsoft and many many
others.

They've been taken in the direction of more manipulative, more deviant, and
less transparent. Most of us can see through them. Look at their new
Sinofskyesque financial reporting that distorts figures.

"revenue that makes the company go." That revenue stream is working so that
nothing is provided to 500 million projected customers in 24 months
according to a MSFT provided slide I'm holding that will help them fix Vista
when it won't boot. OEM sales last quarter up 20%; retail down and those
customers are being abandoned as to the retail media that allows them to use
Win RE/startup repair. Don't fool yourself. You're not going to reach them
with hidden partitions or recovery discs any more than you reached a Repair
install with those modalities in XP.


For example, the subject that is more sensitive than wife beating to people
at Redmond is a simple one. It enrages them and they dance around it. I've
posted in detail here on it. OEM's aren't required to provide a real way to
fix XP or Vista. I attended a system builder presentation in May where the
presenter who was terrible compared to MSFT's usual quality ridiculed hard
working people who asked why the 300 name partner big boys didn't have to
provide anything decent to recover but they had to provide retail CDs or
DVDs in Vista for their customers. They guy said "When you guys (I'm not
one of them but I value them and know many who are dedicated and work very
hard) ship 50,000 boxes than you can have that break.

What the guy missed was that they were also talking about a reliable way to
repair a crashed no boot BSOD stop--not to mention that MSFT has missed the
boat on how Driver Verifier's inspection and deadlock detection can be
modified to prevent a significant amount of BSOD's in Vista and XP but
that's off topic and they are getting that info,

They did not provide ways to do repair installs in almost 100% or OEM
preinstalled XPs and they won't be in Vista for the less reliable--I've
tested it hundres of time Startup Repair in Win RE which has been scaled
down from its original ambition. If Fabricant Deep Freeze that was on
Eduardo Larueano's slides is in RC1 show me that Easter Egg Tom 'cause I
don't see it. What happened to ole Fabricant that they purchased the
licensing for in Vista. Apparently it's not seeing the light of day. But
it's on the Win RE Live Meeting slides.

I know what you're allowed to do. I read it when you did or before. And
when I hear so and so has their reasons--I'm hearing that from the
government in my country and they've flown security into the ground--yours
and mine. Watch it unravel in the next year. That strategy is based on a
bet that the center of people are ignorant no matter how materially
successful they are and it's working Read Tom Friedman's column in the NY
Times on how lack of oversight and collective apathy and ignorance of the
American people works.

ABC is going to air something billed as history shipped to 100,000 schools
that is total ignornace and distortion on Sunday and Monday. They will
probably back down a bit, but they thought they could do it based on the
huge degree of American ignorance and failure to read critically and demand
accounting.

Let's see:

MSFT has their reasons for what? I asked for bug access on Connect for the
public; I asked for the Beta chats to be posted in a central place, and I
asked for the Beta Live Meetings (it's a little late to open most of them)
to open up. And I asked for the Beta Live Meetings to be posted in a
central place as well.

I respect you. Your posts are very good and very useful but if you think
doing that is compromising Vista's beta program I resepectfully
think--hogwash. No way. Again the damn chats are ectopically and
metastatically on the public web. Why not make it easy. I can find them but
a lot of people can't.

Why not put them on Technet, MSDN and in an MSKB???

They put a number of issues for each milestone in an MSKB---why the hell not
the Beta chats and Live meetings to promote education?

There is no NDA according to Mr. Donnnelly more than once. Read his posts
since the Beta started on the Longhorn general Beta group. And Connect as
a portal offers a lot of people Betas that are totally inappropriate to
them. They offer tons of enterprise Betas to people who will never touch
some of the enterprise servers they are intended for who know MSFT's
software and what they make server wise inside out.

I specifically asked for access to the bug portion of Connect--they purport
the public gets it to provide meaningful testing. Baloney. They took the
Beta way wide adding people all spring. The public gets it like they have
every OS to seed sales. MSFT is about marketing mainly and the quality of
the products is always going to be secondary. I understand the level of
talent there. But that's the way it is. Steve Sinofsky has been great with
Office of having an elite, effete, condescending attitude toward the users
of Office forcing developers to dumb it down every version, cutting out a
lot of userful features. 2007 is no different. And he leaves features on
the floor when he does that good Office mavens have complained about for
years.

I have been very precise again and people are putting words in my mouth
about how MSFT could improve the learning experience for their customers and
they have dropped the ball. And the guy who intimated my proposal was
distracting them from code really has a "little golden book" vision of the
Redmond campus.We're talking a very complicated inter-relationship of a
couple thousand engineers on I don't know how many non-intuitively named
teams that you couldn't name (most) unless they spoonfed you the names. I've
seen lots of them and so have you. The name doesn't correlate with what
they do unless you're immersed in that campus culture and have been given
it.

Leaks?? How? How are giving the public access to bugs on Connect going to
be tantamount to leaaks of propitiary information like the forumla for Coca
Cola. Or the code that MSFT legal spent now what threatens to leap t $500
million in fines soon with the European union. MSFT threatening to hold up
Vista in Europe is just pathetically laughable. In your dreams. Talk about
biting off a big Redmond nose to spite a big Redmond face.

I didn't advocate making the world a Beta tester and I didn't advocate
having 27000 people show up anywhere like some goofball just tried to
distort while calling me "insane." LOL

I asked for open bug access on Connect. I asked that MSFT post all the links
to the archived Beta chats in one place so those people not on the Beta
could read them. That's a harmful leak? They're no the web in scattered
places and they were never in the territory of "can't be published" so why
the hell didn't MSFT put them in one place on a decently designed page?

I asked Nick White and Corey to try to make this happen. No reply.

Ed Bott's book is due out December, and I don't know how Ed gets his info in
detail. Someone has got to be helping him. It's not just coming from the
small amount MSFT has on their sites. I'm sure his book that has presold
over 900,000 will be it's usual high quality.

I was advocating public access to bugs. They purport disingenuously and
hypocritically that they really care what the unwashed public bugs. Some
of whom are more talented on many fronts than some of the TBTs from the
amazingly naive Windows inexperienced questions that come on those groups
from some people calling themselves MSN MVPs wow--.

Since they think so little of the public that they won't give them access to
the bugs on Connect, then why should the public spend painstaking time
screenshotting and setting up a good bug report the way all those videos
that are on Connect describe that they don't even get access to.

The bugs as I've said would indicate progress and everyone has a right to
know what they are going to fix and what not. Robert McLaws has pointed out
how badly the price structure is going to screw a family of 4 wanting Vista.
They want good money for the thing--but they aren't willing to be
transparent about the quality or the lack. And while Colin has provided
invaluable high quality help here, he's dead wrong that features haven't had
the hell cut out of them--they have.

There is a lot of settling for mediocrity on the Redmond campus with Windows
Vista and they are doing their best to mask what they cut.

I've seen all the clarification messages from Paul D. , Wendy, whomever.
I've also posted here several times that it's very clear and I understand
their reasoning. but they are disingenuous because I can start to list you
about 50 well know ezine publishers who work for publications who are highly
regarded at MSFT, invited to MSFT for inside briefings, considered a vital
part of the publicity machine by MSFT (and I don't want to give the
impression I'm demeaning them--I'm not--I value them, and depend on their
info. Some of them are MVPs also who have that day job--and talented
developers and Windows users.

One caveat is not to paste advanced info on the Beta newsgroups. The second
that something is posted it shows up on the web in ectopic, metastatic
locations. The warning went out that so and so might be banned from the Beta
forever until hell freezes over to quote the Eagles, but it doesn't happen
to these same people who are frequently invited to the Redmond campus, meet
with key people on the Beta, and get fed--maybe the expenses are paid by
MSFT at times.

Let me be clear about another group that breaks the rules set out by Paul
Donnelly, their orange badge from Volt "Wendy", and others. That would be
the MSDN blog members of the Vista teams who post a ton of good info, but
they don't give a rats ass about the Beta admins rules 'cause what they
gonna do--fire Joe Blow off the setup team who is an engineer who is making
setup? I don't think so. I can paste examples until the cows come home.
Steven Bink who has a nice site and follows MSFT well puts a lot of pastes
up from the Connect announcements and emials and newsgroup posts that have
been labled verboten. So does Mary Jo Foley.

I'm sure that both of them hold information that is given to them in
confidence, but follow their sites, and you'll see they post all the things
you just mentioned. I've seen them in both places Tom. On the groups and
on their sites at the same time. I've seen the same stuff on the MSFTie
MSDN and Technet blogs.

So the people those warnings apply to are Otto Schmidlap TBT I guess. That
dual standard originates in Seattle though, in a country full of them.

I just got a flame attack ( like I give two ****s) from some cyber nut for
asking for

1) The public to have better access to info via:

Access to Beta groups or at least their posting in a central place. Hell
they are ectopic on the web. Since the public can't access bugs (stupid just
consummately stupid of MSFT) than they should be able to access some of
what's not going to be fixed. I can show you my quesiton nailing down the
team members on the device chat asking them since Device Manager does not
truthfully validate whether a particular driver is corrupt if they are
going to fix it in Vista and my getting a suscinct "NO."

A follow up question that's appropriate is why the hell not? How many
Operating Systems does it take to fix the thing? It introed in Windows 95
and we've had five OS's since that one. I'm going to go out on a limb here
Tom, I think drivers are somewhat important. I'm funny that way. They have
improved Task Man and I wrote specific people for those features for three
years before that Beta--not that it hadany impact but I wanted locations and
definitons of processes there on theinterface and while it could be better
it's a nice step in the right direction.

My suggestions were not concerns for what I would be apart of. I think you
should look at my first 3 paragraphs again.

They were for what they do to the vast majority of their customers. The
only respect they have for them is for their money. They want it
transferred to Redmond. They don't want contact with them, and rarely
answer emails. If you don't know what Convergys of Ohio does--that's their
major PSS along with ocassionally Volt, Excel (not the Office app) and
other similar companies, and MSFT does not want to talk about them at
all--another "beat your wife" for the softies--then call and pose a few
routine Windows problems and watch yourself cringe--or use Office--they're
equally incompetent with both. If MSFT gave a damn about their customers
than they'd start exercising quality control on their PSS that clinically
resulted in improvement on the ground. That's non-existent and won't ever
be.

CH
"Tom Ziegmann" wrote in message
...
Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are.
We TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not
allowed to post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything
that is actually found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there
should be some way for the users that send in feedback a way to see the
status and update / add comments but I don't think that making the Vista
Connect portal a public free for all would be a good thing either. I also
think that it would compromise the security and reliablity of a closed
beta program. Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do, but I
don't think filing a suggestion with a rant is the way to go about getting
what you want done, done. I think what you should do is contact Corey Snow
on the Connect team and voice your opinion with out the rant and see what
he has to say. I have been dealing with him on some issues for the past
few days and he seems like a good contact to go to with any suggestions,
comments / concerns on Connect. His rmail address is
). Also, I think it is just like the Microsoft
Certification tests, there has to be a ensured level of security with the
tests and also with millions of lines of intellectual property that
generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have
been done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make
them out to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes around
e-mail the alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista people are
still there contact them and give them legitimate reasons as to why you
should be part of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly
of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
"Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are
closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard
for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn
right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about
getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the
door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what
they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other
bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working
there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up
for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now
of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There
is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then
view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on
Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be
at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a
lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of
feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed
for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you
can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who
want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize
it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping
on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release
dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays
a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone
working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are
and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more
than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into
the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1
at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain
when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

For Intel and Sam-R:

Correction:

Spelling:


No Sam--you can't read something clearly written with sufficient
comprehension. Try this. I'll do my best to me ake it clear. If it's
not--don't be shy and sing out. I'll parse it more clearly in the area you
don't understand. If English is not your first language, I'll get it
translated. I aim to please you. I'm terribly honored by the condescending,
dismissive tone of your question and glad to help. I also eagerly look
forward to the large volume of help you plan to post here--someday.

My premise has been this:


MSFT is doing poorly at educating the public as to Vista, not to mention
they haven't been able to fix major components like Device Manager since
1995. One of the major features of devmgmt.msc is to validate driver health
and it doesn't. Google for the Beta driver chats.

My points--and let me know if you need this made more clear or suscinct:

1) MSFT makes a disingenuous pomp and circumstance of encouraging customer
feedback from the public. However they **** on that by not allowing Connect
access to bugs. They make
the Beta available as a sales adjunct to the campaigns by Wagner Edstrom and
McCann Ericson Worldwide. They hide bugs because they want to promote sales
of a product that is going to ship broken that they didn't fix.

2) 2) To maximize education they need to make Beta Chats available in one
place
on ther sites and in an MSKB the way they make milestone build fixes
available in KBs you haven't seen.

3) To maximize education they need to make Beta Live Meetings available on
their site.

The reason I want these showcased and available is that they provide a lot
of detail that answers questions people continue to ask.

4) This gives up nothing propiritiary and doesn't impact any vague lol
"security for their beta" whatsoever that Tom Ziegler very nebulously
alluded to saying MSFT had "their own reasons." It promotes education in
the same way that MSFT's pilot high school that purports to use only laptops
and no books in Pennsylvanania that is in the news this week does.

5) want the public to be much better users. I want them to have a much
clearer understanding than they have of how to download RC1 and get product
keys which seems the subject of endless obsession. I have seen people told
repeatedly how to get RC1 and have done it myself and noticed that they post
questions without doing a search on the group--they probably don't know it
exists and are using the crappy web interface made by the MSFT communnity
instead of OE or Win Mail. Many of the questions here are asked hundreds of
times because people are to lazy to search the answers that most of us have
answered hundreds of times who do the answering.

I realize that many of the people who ask these questions are a little too
lazy to navigate to the MSFT sites and read them, so it becomes all the more
imperative to up the level of education.

I also think that those of us who work on newsgroups to help explain
features and fix Windows for MSFT's customers and sometimes evangelize their
products are entitled to high qaulity Vista info. It isn't on MSFT's site
on most of the major system features of Vista the way it was for XP at the
stage between RC1 and RC2 during the late summer of 2001 before the Windows
XP Launch on October 25, 2001.
I also understand a very small percent of XP users on the planet used Help
and Support in XP, and I hope they will take advantage of the new Help
server for Vista as well as Guided Support's work in progress in Vista
should they need it.

If this is not clear to you, by all means ask me to parse it. I was born in
California, so I don't know if my command of English is up to the usual
sophisticated level you're accustomed to.

I want to make it very clear.

I also alluded to the fact that one of the major sales revenue streasms to
customers of MSFT for Vista will be on pre-installed boxes. The major
repair modality for a no boot Vista is Win RE--and it's cheif component is
Startup Repair located on the setup screen at the lower left as "Recovery."

The OEM purchasers will not have a Vista retail DVD due to a nasty policy
conjointly promoted by MSFT and its 30OEM "name partners" big guys like
Dell, HP, Sony who make among other things computers. . They will have
recovery CDs and hidden and non-hidden partitions that *WILL NOT* reach Win
RE. This is analagous to the same arrangement in Win XP where the recovery
discs and partitions would not do a repair install which is the chief
modality to fix a no boot XP after F8 Windows Advanced options fail.

I have an additional challenge tailored just for Sam-R:

You take what OEM sends you and choose any of your ten home boys and girls
you think are superior Windows users. I'll take the retail XP CDs and DVDs.
We''ll put up some substantial money and see who wins as to recovery with
what we each have to use.

You game? Bring it.

[Please let me know if you can't comprehend the *points* that have been made
here Sam-R. I aim to please you and will be glad to refine the
clarification until you can comprehend it.]

Best regards,

CH



"Chad Harris" wrote in message
news:...
No Sam--you can't read something clearly written with sufficeint
comprehension. Try this. I'll do my best to m ake it clear. If it's
not--don't be shy and sing out. I'll parse it more clearly in the area
you don't understand. If English is not your first language, I'll get it
translated. I aim to please you. I'm terribly honored by the
condescending tone of your question and glad to help.

My premise has been this:


MSFT is doing poorly at educating the public as to Vista, not to mention
they haven't been able to fix major components like Device Manager since
1995. One of the major features of devmgmt.msc is to validate driver
health and it doesn't. Google for the Beta driver chats.

My points--and let me know if you need this made more clear or suscinct:

1) MSFT makes a disingenuous pomp and circumstance of encouraging customer
feedback from the public.
However they **** on that by not allowing Connect access to bugs. They
make the Beta available as a sales adjunct to the campaings by Wagner
Edstrom and McCann Ericson Worldwide. They hide bugs because they want to
promote sales of a product that is going to ship broken that they didn't
fix.


2) To maximize education they need to make Beta Chats available in one
place on ther sites and in an MSKB the way they make milestone build fixes
available in KBs you haven't seen.

3) To maximize education they need to make Beta Live Meetings available on
their site.

This gives up nothing propiritiary and doesn't impact any vague lol
"security for their beta" whatsoever that Tom Ziegler very nebulously
alluded to saying MSFT had "their own reasons." It promotes education in
the same way that MSFT's pilot school in Pennsylvanania that is in the
news this week does.

I want the public to be much better users. I want them to have a much
clearer u nderstanding than they have of how to download RC1 and get
product keys which seems the subject of endless obsession.

I realize that many of the people who ask these questions are a little too
lazy to navigate to the MSFT sites and read them, so it becomes all the
more imperative to up the level of education.

I also think that those of us who work on newsgroups to help explain
features and fix Windows for MSFT's customers and sometimes evangelize
their products are entitled to high qaulity Vista info. It isn't on
MSFT's site on most of the major system features of Vista the way it was
for XP at the stage between RC1 and RC2 during the late summer of 2005.

If this is not clear to you, by all means ask me to parse it. I was born
in California, so I don't know if my command of English is up to the usual
sophisticated level you're accustomed to.

I want to make it very clear.

I also alluded to the fact that one of the major sales revenue streasms
to customers of MSFT for Vista will be on pre-installed boxes. The major
repair modality for a no boot Vista is Win RE--and it's cheif component is
Startup Repair located on the setup screen at the lower left as
"Recovery." The OEM purchasers will not have a Vista retail DVD due to a
nasty policy conjointly promoted by MSFT and its 30OEM "name partners" big
guys like Dell, HP, Sony who make among other things computers. . They
will have recovery CDs and hidden and non-hidden partitions that WILL NOT
reach Win RE. This is analagous to the same arrangement in Win XP where
the recovery discs and partitions would not do a repair install which is
the chief modality to fix a no boot XP after F8 Windows Advanced options
fail.

I have an additional challenge for you:

You take what OEM sends you and choose any of your ten home boys and girls
you think are superior Windows users. I'll take the retail XP CDs and
DVDs. We''ll put up some substantial money and see who wins as to recovery
with what we each have to use.

You game? Bring it.

CH









"SAM-R" wrote in message
...
Do you have a point to make? Because if you do, you have not made it.
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
"CLOSED WON'T FIX" 9/16/06

All of these cheerleaders for MSFT who say they care what the public
files as to bugs should know they totally reject the idea of giving you
any meaningful access to the bugs filed on Connect.

On 6/5/06, I used Connect's feedback program (which I suppose is
available to anyone) to suggest that they open bugs to the public as
well as their Beta Chats and their Live Meetings that approximately 110
people max attend on the average out of 27,000 TBTs.

The resolution was "CLOSED WON'T FIX" 9/16/06 and even though I
designated it public, they took it private to hide it in keeping with
the devious MSFT no-transparency culture now fostered by the new
Sinofsky regime. It's the same culture that has MSFT turning over all
your MSN searches to the government and their security bloggers lying to
you about doing it as of their meeting June 1 and 2 in Washington, D.C.

The suggestion complaint read:

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
a learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
the public.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone
with an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help
for your customers on your newsgroups.


Suggestion Category

Feedback (Bugs and Suggestions)



Recommendation

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.
3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That
arms length approach would be pathetic.
4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on
this policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your
public customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished


Suggestion Category

Feedback (Bugs and Suggestions)



Recommendation

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a central
place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.


3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.


4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on
this policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your
public customer base.


Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished and if anyone wants to see them RC1 replete flawed OS out the
door.

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.


A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

CH










"Intel Inside" REMOVETHISBIT@com wrote in message
...
Tom,
you are probably the clearest and most rational poster I have seen in this
ng.


"Tom Ziegmann" wrote in message
...
Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are.
We TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not
allowed to post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything
that is actually found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there
should be some way for the users that send in feedback a way to see the
status and update / add comments but I don't think that making the Vista
Connect portal a public free for all would be a good thing either. I also
think that it would compromise the security and reliablity of a closed
beta program. Microsoft has it reasons for doing the things they do, but
I don't think filing a suggestion with a rant is the way to go about
getting what you want done, done. I think what you should do is contact
Corey Snow on the Connect team and voice your opinion with out the rant
and see what he has to say. I have been dealing with him on some issues
for the past few days and he seems like a good contact to go to with any
suggestions, comments / concerns on Connect. His rmail address is
). Also, I think it is just like the Microsoft
Certification tests, there has to be a ensured level of security with the
tests and also with millions of lines of intellectual property that
generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have
been done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make
them out to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes
around e-mail the alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista
people are still there contact them and give them legitimate reasons as
to why you should be part of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...
LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your
syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features
of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a
panopoly of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
"Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are
closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard
for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn
right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed
many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about
getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the
door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge
of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what
they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other
bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass.
They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working
there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line
is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I
can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up
for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right
now of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are
wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site.
There is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then
view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing
it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on
Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to
be at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to
offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a
lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of
feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed
for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you
can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who
want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I
find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and
metabolize it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really
stepping on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release
dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays
a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone
working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I
can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" wrote in message
...
"Chad Harris" wrote in message
...

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
the
CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance
of a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken
seriously.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are
and
the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture
possible
in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning
curves
of their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
far.

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
they
hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
from
the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much
actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
all
27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
finish. How can this be productive?

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
on
Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
Technet
LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more
than
200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium
of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
is
no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to
offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people,
working
on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
free
access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
and house of representatives at will. There has to be some
restrictions
in place, or no real work would ever get done.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into
the
MSFT pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT
public
websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet
blogs,
but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
Win
RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone
with
an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help
for
your customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release
dates,
and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending
way
too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to
answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
accomplished.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
sites.

Same as #1

3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That
arms
length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1
at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain
when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
happen.

4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend
to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
(make
sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about
50
days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your
other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that
it
"like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds
cool
and so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a
toadie
or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author
of
MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
too
blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to
get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
consultants.
In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in
a
while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners
and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

You haven't been looking very hard, Chad.

I've been helping people with Windows (usually from the programming side)
way back before Windows 95 even came out. Here's an early google -- and
before anyone asks -- NO I don't do VB anymore dammit!

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....de49d10cbf1a00

Just because I don't reply to many posts in this newsgroup doesn't mean I
don't productively contribute elsewhere and in other aspects of Windows.
Yes, I am a Microsoft fan. Microsoft has made me a lot of money over the
last 15 years. Love them or hate them, they're my personal bread and
butter. Have you actually been to Microsoft's Redmond campus? Have you
actually sat down with the developers 1 on 1? I have. You won't find a
more dedicated bunch of folks who sincerely love their jobs and what they do
for a living.

The reason you and your ilk bug me is because you make wild accusations and
exaggerate your position to the extreme in order to provoke a reaction. A
negative reaction. Your feedback was promptly binned, and for good reason.
It stupid and juvenile. Disagree? Please tell me how any of the snippets
below contributed to a positive consideration of your feedback request:

... they took it private to hide it in keeping with the devious MSFT
no-transparency culture now fostered by the new Sinofsky regime. It's the
same culture that has MSFT turning over all your MSN searches to the
government and their security bloggers lying to you about doing it

MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public ...

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible in
contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves of
their customers with respect to Vista ...

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is hardly
the case.

MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their tables
and toys in their homes ...

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and settings
transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the MSFT
pockets from the public as possible

MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed public thinks. Your arrogance
that cost you nearly 250 million and growing fines after Brad Smith's
litigation with the European Union (make sure Brad gets a big Christmas
bonus) is systemically branded on this policy that is going to generate
untrained Vista users in your public customer base

Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have them
post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some pathetic
cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide."