G'day, Mate! (Did I say that right? g )

The only reason I'm putting in the extra HDD
is because of the negatives I've heard about 2 OSs on 1 drive. Am I
misled?

The problem is in our often-imprecise use of the word "drive". Just like
many other words ("right" and "left" come to mind), this word means
different things at different times, depending on the context.

If "drive" means a single partition or logical drive, then the negatives
you've heard are very true.

But if "drive" means a physical hard disk drive, then I'm in big trouble
because I have SIX versions of Windows installed on my 1 TB Disk 1, my
second HDD! I'm currently running the Win7 x64 RC from the 9th logical
drive on that disk!

Rather than type it all over again, let me paste what I just typed in
another newsgroup. It's partly a repeat of what I just said - or said in an
earlier post - but it seems to need the repetition:

paste
About "drive" letters: This is one of my pet peeves because it is one of
the hardest mindsets to break! "Drive" has many meanings, just like "right"
and "left" and so many other English words. And in computer-speak, it
sometimes refers to the physical hardware, but more often to just a
partition - just a defined portion of the physical disk. Our often cavalier
use of the word "drive" causes one of the biggest fallacies ingrained into
the minds of new computer users - and the fallacy persists even in many
(most?) computer veterans. :(

"Drive" letters are never assigned to physical disks; those are assigned
NUMBERS, not letters. They start with zero, which is why Disk Management
calls the HDDs "Disk 0", "Disk 1", etc. Each "drive" letter actually is
assigned to a "volume", which can be either a primary partition or a logical
drive in an extended partition on an HDD - or to a partition on a flash
drive (not the flash drive itself) or to a partition on a CD/DVD drive (not
to the whole drive) or to a camera or a card reader. (I've never had a
network, but I understand that they also use "drive" letters.) But we began
to refer to Drive A: way back when we first started to use floppy disks in
the 1970's - and the term really did refer to the whole 67.5 KB diskette.
The name stuck when we added hard disk drives, reserving letters A: and B:
for the typical two floppy drives and assigning Drive C: to THE hard disk.
Then we learned how to divide the hard disk platter into "partitions" and
assign a different letter to each partition. But we continued to use the
term "drive" to refer to each of the partitions, rather than to the entire
disk. When we began to need more than 4 partitions on a single disk, we
created one "extended partition" on the disk; we did not assign a letter to
the extended partition, but we created one or more logical drives in the
extended partition and assigned a "drive" letter to each of those logical
drives. (We now often use the term "volume" to refer to either a primary
partition or a logical drive.) And then came optical drives, flash drives
and all those other "drives".

If you run Disk Management, you will see this clearly in the Graphical View.
Disk 0 might include 2 primary partitions and an extended partition with 3
logical drives. The "drive" letters might be F:, C:, X:, D:, R:... In
other words, the letters are independent of the sequence on the HDD. In
fact, there may not be a Drive C: at all - which blows the mindset I
mentioned, but is perfectly legal.

Vista changed the algorithm for assigning drive letters during Setup. In
WinXP, Setup first assigned Drive C: to the System Partition, which usually
was also the boot volume. (See the oft-cited KB 314470 for the
counterintuitive definitions of "system volume" and "boot volume" - legacy
terms that cause and perpetuate much confusion.) Then it assigned letters
to the other partitions, optical drives, etc. Vista Setup, though, when run
by booting from the Vista DVD, assigns Drive C: to its own boot volume,
which might be the 3rd partition on the second HDD! And then it assigns
other letters in sequence, starting over with the first primary partition on
Disk 0, so it is quite probable that in a computer that already has an OS
installed, the System Partition will become Drive D:. This will NOT confuse
the computer, or Vista or other Windows installations - or any well-written
utility or application. But it WILL confuse any user who is bound by the
WinXP mindset. They will think it is "weird". :^}

We should always assign each volume a unique name (label), which will be
written to the disk and will be the same, no matter which OS is running, and
no matter what "drive" letter is currently assigned.
/paste

Thanks for confirming that you have only a single partition on each of your
HDDs. In that configuration, which is very typical, it's hard to see the
distinction between the whole drive and the partition that covers the whole
drive. One analogy might be a house that has only a single big room. When
you enter the house, you enter the room - and when you leave the room,
you're out of the house. But if that house has six rooms with six outside
doors, you can enter Room 1 without even knowing that Room 3 exists. And if
you've never seen a house with more than one room, you might have trouble
picturing one in your mind.

You really need to run Disk Management and study what it tells you about
your 3 HDDs. Hook 'em all up, then boot into Vista (or WinXP or whichever
Windows is available) and run Disk Management. The easiest way is to just
press Start, type "diskmgmt.msc" and press Enter. Maximize the window and
the Status column so that you can see which is the System and Boot
volume(s). The Help file here is loaded with good information, but it has
some flaws. First, this Help covers the entire Microsoft Management Console
(MMC) and you want to focus on just the Disk Management parts. Second, it
is organized as a reference, not as a text or tutorial, so you can't just
start at the beginning and read straight through. And, third, it covers
some advanced features that you and I don't need to know yet (like GPT disks
and dynamic volumes), so we have to kind of "read around" those parts. But
an hour spent in this Help file will tell you more than I can about how your
hard disks are organized and can be used.

The 3rd volume is a Seagate Baracuda
500GB this is the one I propose installing and putting XP on.

No. That HDD is not a "volume". Once you use Disk Management to create a
partition on it, that partition will be a "volume". That volume can be any
size up to 500 GB, the whole HDD. But WinXP doesn't need nearly that much
room.

If it were my system, I would first create a small partition (5 GB is way
more than big enough, but you have "more disk space than you'll ever need",
right?) that I could use for a System Partition, but leave it formatted and
empty; for now it's just a place holder. Then create a second partition; 30
GB is more than plenty; name it "WinXP Pro"; assign it any available letter
that you like, let's say "X" for XP; format it NTFS. Now, while still in
Vista, insert the WinXP CD-ROM and run its Setup.exe to install WinXP to
your new Drive X:.

Caveat: I've not installed WinXP over Win7. Which WinXP you have? Is SP3
included? Even SP3 does not know how to integrate with Vista or Win7. With
any version of WinXP, you probably will need to boot from the Vista DVD
later and let it repair the System Partition - because you are violating the
Golden Rule (newest system LAST) that I mentioned in my first post.

Now, reboot. It SHOULD start booting from your System Partition (still the
only partition on your first HDD, which has Vista installed) and present the
bootmgr menu with two choices (earlier and Vista). Choose Vista and verify
that Vista still starts properly. Then Restart. This time, choose the
"earlier" version of Windows. WinXP should load and proceed to the familiar
WinXP desktop. (Now you have the usual installation tasks, including all
the Windows Updates, drivers, etc., that have to be dealt with to have a
working WinXP SP3 system.)

Let us know, step by step, what you try and, verbatim, any error messages or
other problems you encounter.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 RC 7100


"DavidG" wrote in message
...
Hi R. C.

Thanks for your support to this point. For better or for worse I have
complete confidence in what you are telling me . I'm probably having a
gradual awakening rather than an "Aha" experience. But this is good. My
replies happen at what may seem to be weird hours because I'm in
Australia.

I currently have 2 HDDs in my machine. 1 is a 500GB WD with Vista
installed
on it, and the other is a 750GB Samsung which is simply a passive file
storage volume (all my data files). The 3rd volume is a Seagate Baracuda
500GB this is the one I propose installing and putting XP on. All three
drives have a single partition. The only reason I'm putting in the extra
HDD
is because of the negatives I've heard about 2 OSs on 1 drive. Am I
misled?

I'm not sure what other details are relevant to tell you in terms of my
system configuration? I can tell you that amid all the instructions I
purchased a copy of VistaBootPro, which I now understand restores the
settings of the Vista bootloader, is that right? Looking at your
instructions I may not need it.

One other question,

Step 2: Leave the first HDD connected, with the System Partition on it -
and WinXP somewhere on that HDD, too. (I would prefer it in a second
partition, rather than have its boot volume share the system partition,
but
that point is optional and does not change what happens next.)

When you say "first HDD connected" you mean the one with the newly
installed
XP on it, correct?

If it is going to be less risk, I don't mind trying a second partition on
the Vista volume. (Save myself a HDD). I've never done either
operations.
With one drive I would have 500GB or less to play with, I could do divide
up
300GB to Vista and 200GB to XP say. The only reason I want XP at all is
so I
can use Office 2003 without having clashes with Office 2007.

Does it help that I now have VistaBootPro? or it doesn't matter.
Anyway, I will be doing this work over the weekend here and I will
definitely be giving feedback and posting to this thread. Everyone has
helped in their own way.
Thanks for you patience.

Thanks for now
David G

"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, David.

I'm probably thick as a brick where this is
concerned.

It's called "mindset" - and we ALL have experienced it. :(

We all have known the "Aha!" moment when the "light bulb" turns on.
Immediately, what was so complex a moment ago is now as clear as a bell.
;)

It seems too simple that I
just disconnect the already installed Vista drive, then plug in the
blank
HDD
and install XP as per normal. Is this part correct???

Yes, it's just that simple, to this point.

Once the XP
installation is complete it seems to be that once BOTH OSs are
installed,
then the fun and games begins, is that true?

Not quite.

All you really need to do then is to update the startup files on your
first
HDD. You need for Vista Setup.exe to write its files there while
preserving
the WinXP startup files - and to create a menu to let you choose. (In
all
your posts so far, David, you have not yet told us how many partitions
are
on each HDD. Our job would be easier if we knew such basic facts about
your
system. For now, I'm assuming a single partition on each HDD.)

Step 2: Leave the first HDD connected, with the System Partition on it -
and WinXP somewhere on that HDD, too. (I would prefer it in a second
partition, rather than have its boot volume share the system partition,
but
that point is optional and does not change what happens next.)

Step 3: Connect your second HDD (with Vista and a second System
Partition
on it).

Step 4: Boot from your Vista DVD and click Repair your computer. On the
next screen, click Startup Repair. As a part of the repair, Vista will
detect the existing WinXP and include the "earlier" version option in the
startup menu.

Repair should know to fix the first HDD, but it might do the second
instead.
That's OK. You can just set your BIOS to boot from the second HDD
instead
of the first. The computer will be just as happy that way. ;)

I am new to this but the only way I'll learn is to do it myself.

Yep! One thing for su You won't know until you try. A dozen more
newsgroup exchanges will leave you still wondering - and without a
working
dual boot system. Do it - and then let us know what happened. You
shouldn't have any problems, but we're here if you do. ;)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 RC 7100

"DavidG" wrote in message
...
Hi R. C.

I've read over your thread a number of times and it is beginning to
sink
in.
I am new to this but the only way I'll learn is to do it myself. I'm
just
worried about the system not booting at all. If I slip up somewhere.
I
don't think I am thick but I'm probably thick as a brick where this is
concerned.

No one has said either yes or no to the proposed installation as
described
by "DL" in the first posting (other than Josh). It seems too simple
that
I
just disconnect the already installed Vista drive, then plug in the
blank
HDD
and install XP as per normal. Is this part correct??? Once the XP
installation is complete it seems to be that once BOTH OSs are
installed,
then the fun and games begins, is that true?

So If I am following your instructions BOTH HDDs will have a System
Volume/Partition. The Vista volume will have a system volume - because
it
was already there. Because the Vista volume was disconnected when
installing
XP, the XP volume also will have a system volume. OK, if I wade
through
the
instructions I've been given I will find an answer to this conundrum?

I guess I can always take the PC to my local computer shop, where they
will
charge me by the hour and I will have still learnt nothing.
Unfortunately,
to learn something I may have to ask dumb questions, well I'm not
afraid
of
that. If I encounter put-downs as a result of asking, then it is bad
luck,
I'll keep asking.
Thanks



"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, David.

does the "Earlier version of Windows" option occur automatically

Yes. Setup.exe in either Vista or Win7 will automatically create this
as
the first of the boot options if it detects WinXP already installed on
the
computer.

On later reboots, if you select (or let it default to) Vista or Win7,
this
"earlier" line will be ignored, of course, and your Vista/Win7
selection
will be loaded and started, just as you would expect. NTLDR, etc.,
will
simply be ignored in that case. But if you select the "earlier"
option,
then Vista's bootmgr will turn control over to the saved file of the
WinXP
boot sector, which knows nothing of Vista but will look for NTLDR -
and
continue as though Vista/Win7 did not exist. As always in a
WinXP-only
system, if there is only a single WinXP installation, the boot process
will
not waste time presenting the Boot.ini menu but will simply boot the
only
choice.

While you may not have tried, it, some of us have dual-booted multiple
installations of Win2K/XP. We might have (or have had) WinXP Pro
(x86)
plus
WinXP x64 - and maybe an installation of Win2K, all selected from the
Boot.ini menu at startup. If we added Vista to that system, Vista's
Setup
would preserve that Boot.ini file. On each reboot, when we select
"earlier", that previous multiple-choice Boot.ini menu will be
presented.
But if there is only a single choice in Boot.ini, that OS will be
booted
automatically after we select "earlier".

RC

"DavidG" wrote in message
...
What can I say, the reponses to my post have been fantastic and
generous.
As
is yours RC. The only thing, and I might be wrong about this, but I
still
feel a little uncertain about setting up the booting side of it.
What
I
mean
is does the "Earlier version of Windows" option occur automatically
or
do
I
need to do something? How do I physically set that choice up? If
I'm
overdoing the request let me know, I feel confident about the
installation,
it is just that last bit.



"R. C. White" wrote:

Hi, David.

You've received plenty of good advice here. You don't really need
more,
but... ;^}

Ever since WinNT4 (which is where I jumped in to dual-booting), the
Microsoft dual-boot (actually multi-boot) system has consisted of
two
parts:
The System Partition and the Boot Volume. For the official but
counterintuitive definitions of these two terms, see KB 314470 (
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314470/EN-US/ ). As others have
said,
those
uninformed on such matters may think it strange that we boot from
the
system
partition and keep the operating system files in the boot volume -
but
those
terms are rooted in computer history and we're stuck with them. I
see
this
as a figure "Y". It all stands on the upright portion, the System
Partition. The boot process starts there, then proceeds to one of
the
two
(or more) branches of the "Y", depending on what we select. (In a
one-OS
system, the "Y" looks like an "I", but the System Partition and
Boot
Volume
still exist - and the distinction is still important.)

The System Partition must be a primary partition and marked Active
(bootable), and it must be on the HDD designated in the BIOS as the
boot
device. The Boot Volume may be a primary partition, but it also
may
be a
logical drive in an extended partition on any HDD in the computer.
If
there
are multiple Windows installations, each will have its own Boot
Volume,
but
they will all share the single System Partition. (More complex
arrangements
are possible, such as creating a System Partition on each of
multiple
HDDs
and changing BIOS settings to choose between them, as some have
suggested
in
this thread, but let's keep it simple for the current discussion.)

The System Partition can be very small (well under 1 GB) because
all
that
is
required to be there are the boot sector (512 bytes) and the few
relatively
small startup files. The Win2K/XP startup files are only NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini. For Vista/Win7, they are only the file
"bootmgr"
(no extension) and the folder named \Boot, which holds the BCD
(Boot
Configuration Data). No matter where you tell Setup to install
Windows,
these startup files MUST be in the System Partition.

All the rest of Windows (maybe 10 GB or more for Vista) will be
installed
in
a single folder tree, named \Windows, in the Root of whichever
volume
you
choose, which thereby becomes the Boot Volume for that Windows
installation.
This CAN share the System Partition - and that is the typical
arrangement,
especially for newbies and for new computers with Windows
pre-installed.
But this means that you can't format that Boot Volume without also
wiping
out the System Partition. (Win7's default installation on a new
blank
computer solves this by creating the System Partition as a separate
volume
with no drive letter, then creating the large boot volume and
assigning
it
Drive C:. But that arrangement is not available to us when adding
Win7
to
an existing WinXP system.)

WinXP's Setup.exe never heard of Vista or Win7, of course, because
those
did
not exist back in 2001, when WinXP was released. But Vista and
Win7
Setup
knows how to handle an existing WinXP. That's the reason for the
Golden
Rule of Dual-Booting: Always install the newest Windows last.
When
Win7
Setup finds an existing WinXP, it does not delete NTLDR, etc., but
adds
its
own bootmgr and \Boot folder alongside them, then rewrites the boot
sector
(after saving a copy of it). Later, on each reboot, the BCD menu
includes
an option for an "Earlier version of Windows". If you choose that,
the
BCD
gets out of the way and lets NTLDR present the familiar Boot.ini
menu -
if
there are multiple Win2K/XP options - or continues directly into
WinXP
if
there is only one. Since you want to add WinXP to a system that
already
has
Vista installed, you'll need to do some repair work after
installing
WinXP,
but that's easier than it used to be. And upgrading from Vista to
Win7
later should be easy, although Microsoft hasn't yet published the
details
of
this transition.

Well, that's enough for now. We could discuss drive letters and
such,
or
creating multiple System Partitions on your multiple HDDs (for
insurance
in
case one HDD gets damaged), but we can save those for another day.

RC

"DavidG" wrote in message
...
Hi
I'm wanting to create a dual boot for my PC. I would like to use
2
separate
HDDs. One HDD has Vista Business (current) and the other
proposed
HDD