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Hardware and Windows Vista Hardware issues in relation to Windows Vista. (microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices)

ram ..please help



 
 
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 06:01 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default ram ..please help

Colin Barnhorst wrote:
Which clearly states what I have been trying to tell you:
"Although support for PAE memory is typically associated with support
for more than 4 GB of RAM, PAE can be enabled on Windows XP SP2, Windows
Server 2003, and later 32-bit versions of Windows to support
hardware-enforced Data Execution Prevention (DEP)."


This is not what we're talking about, I really do know that. You just
keep saying that 32-bit OSes cannot mathematically address more than
4GB, and that is not true. Yes, XP and Vista cannot go above 4GB, but
that is because Microsoft choose not to go there.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 06:02 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default ram ..please help

Paul Smith wrote:

The trouble is in the real world PAE, and other extension "hacks" would
often crash systems because hardware manufacturers drivers weren't
written to support it.


The issue is not about bad drivers that crash when they get a memory
buffer allocated above 4G, but the fact that the 4G-limitation is
something Microsoft chose for XP and Vista.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 06:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
Colin Barnhorst[_2_]
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Posts: 2,464
Default ram ..please help

Where do you get the idea that MS chose not to let the clients "go there."
They inherently don't "go there." The only "choice" MS made was to program
a capability into the Windows Server editions that enables them to "go
there." The capability to enable PAE to leverage additional addressable
memory is something that has to be programmed into an OS, not something that
is programmed out of one.

"dennis" wrote in message
...
Colin Barnhorst wrote:
Which clearly states what I have been trying to tell you:
"Although support for PAE memory is typically associated with support for
more than 4 GB of RAM, PAE can be enabled on Windows XP SP2, Windows
Server 2003, and later 32-bit versions of Windows to support
hardware-enforced Data Execution Prevention (DEP)."


This is not what we're talking about, I really do know that. You just keep
saying that 32-bit OSes cannot mathematically address more than 4GB, and
that is not true. Yes, XP and Vista cannot go above 4GB, but that is
because Microsoft choose not to go there.


  #24 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 07:02 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default ram ..please help

Colin Barnhorst wrote:
Where do you get the idea that MS chose not to let the clients "go
there." They inherently don't "go there." The only "choice" MS made was
to program a capability into the Windows Server editions that enables
them to "go there." The capability to enable PAE to leverage additional
addressable memory is something that has to be programmed into an OS,
not something that is programmed out of one.


Okay, again. You said it yourself: both xp and vista comes with a PAE
kernel, to support DEP.

When you enter PAE mode the CPU makes it both mathematically and
technically possible to address more than 4GB. So now the OS developer
has a *choice*. Microsoft choose *not* to support more than 4GB in the
PAE kernel (starting from XP/SP2), because there exist bad drivers out
there. *This* is what we're talking about, at least I am.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 06:21 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
Curious
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 375
Default ram ..please help

I interpret the following to mean that only 64bit Vista fully supports DEP.


http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605/en-us

"dennis" wrote in message
...
Colin Barnhorst wrote:
Where do you get the idea that MS chose not to let the clients "go
there." They inherently don't "go there." The only "choice" MS made was
to program a capability into the Windows Server editions that enables
them to "go there." The capability to enable PAE to leverage additional
addressable memory is something that has to be programmed into an OS, not
something that is programmed out of one.


Okay, again. You said it yourself: both xp and vista comes with a PAE
kernel, to support DEP.

When you enter PAE mode the CPU makes it both mathematically and
technically possible to address more than 4GB. So now the OS developer has
a *choice*. Microsoft choose *not* to support more than 4GB in the PAE
kernel (starting from XP/SP2), because there exist bad drivers out there.
*This* is what we're talking about, at least I am.


  #26 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 06:59 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
SCSIraidGURU
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 156
Default ram ..please help


You can only access a theoretical maximum of 4GB in 32-bit OS. Most
computers are lucky to address 3.25 GB with newer video cards installed.
64-bit Ultimate can address 128GB of RAM and huge paging file. /pae
switch does not allow you to break the 4GB 32-bit rule. I used it to
help NUMA memory management on my AMD server boards.

2^ 32 =4294967296
=4GB


--
SCSIraidGURU

Michael A. McKenney
'www.SCSIraidGURU.com' (http://www.SCSIraidGURU.com)

Supermicro X7DWA-N server board
pair of Intel E5430 quad core 2.66 GHz Xeons
16GB DDR667
SAS RAID
eVGA 8800 GTS 640 MB video card
  #27 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 07:17 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default ram ..please help

SCSIraidGURU wrote:
You can only access a theoretical maximum of 4GB in 32-bit OS. Most
computers are lucky to address 3.25 GB with newer video cards installed.
64-bit Ultimate can address 128GB of RAM and huge paging file. /pae
switch does not allow you to break the 4GB 32-bit rule. I used it to
help NUMA memory management on my AMD server boards.

2^ 32 =4294967296
=4GB


I suspect that you don't know fully how memory access works in a x86 cpu
running in paging mode. The only thing that cannot change is the size of
the virtual address space, which is always 4GB. The physical one can be
much larger.

Btw, 32bit xp/vista supports up to 16TB per paging file when the PAE
kernel is loaded.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 07:50 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
SCSIraidGURU
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 156
Default ram ..please help


*-PAE Mode-*
PAE is the second method supported to access memory above 4 GB; this
method has been widely implemented. PAE maps up to 64 GB of physical
memory into a 32-bit (4 GB) virtual address space using either 4-KB or
2-MB pages. The Page directories and the page tables are extended to 8
byte formats, allowing the extension of the base addresses of page
tables and page frames to 24 bits (from 20 bits). This is where the
extra four bits are introduced to complete the 36-bit physical address.
Windows supports PAE with 4-KB pages. PAE also supports a mode where
2-MB pages are supported. Many of the UNIX operating systems rely on the
2 MB-page mode. The address translation is done without the use of page
tables (the PDE supplies the page frame address directly).

I only have seen a few CAD applications successfully access PAE. Most
applications on the market can't use PAE properly. So for most users it
is a moot issue. You are still limited to physical RAM of 4GB with most
applications limited to 2GB per application. Applications like Photoshop
CS2 are paritally 64-bit and can access 6GB of RAM and a larger paging
file. It is very few applications that can use PAE. Personally, I rather
have 64-bit applications and more physical RAM instead being used in
Vista over using paging files that are 1000x slower access. As 64-bit
applications become available, it would be better to add RAM over paging
space.

It was $44 per GB for my 16GB of DDR667 RAM = $700.Benchmark Results
Combined Index : 24648 MB/s
Speed Factor : 42.2
2kB Blocks : 110697 MB/s
4kB Blocks : 120317 MB/s
8kB Blocks : 129715 MB/s
16kB Blocks : 133004 MB/s
32kB Blocks : 133339 MB/s
64kB Blocks : 119000 MB/s
128kB Blocks : 45663 MB/s
256kB Blocks : 45800 MB/s
512kB Blocks : 45807 MB/s
1MB Blocks : 45851 MB/s
4MB Blocks : 45300 MB/s
16MB Blocks : 15601 MB/s
64MB Blocks : 3160 MB/s
256MB Blocks : 3160 MB/s
1GB Blocks : 3160 MB/s
4GB Blocks : 3161 MB/s
Results Interpretation : Higher index values are better.

It is much faster than the $2200 SAS RAID controller and arrays.
RAID 1 array
Buffered Read : 1.01GB/s
Sequential Read : 119.73MB/s
Random Read : 128.25MB/s
Buffered Write : 679.29MB/s
Sequential Write : 31.91MB/s
Random Write : 31.21MB/s
Random Access Time : 1ms


--
SCSIraidGURU

Michael A. McKenney
'www.SCSIraidGURU.com' (http://www.SCSIraidGURU.com)

Supermicro X7DWA-N server board
pair of Intel E5430 quad core 2.66 GHz Xeons
16GB DDR667
SAS RAID
eVGA 8800 GTS 640 MB video card
  #29 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 08:17 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default ram ..please help

SCSIraidGURU wrote:

I only have seen a few CAD applications successfully access PAE. Most
applications on the market can't use PAE properly. So for most users it
is a moot issue. You are still limited to physical RAM of 4GB with most
applications limited to 2GB per application. Applications like Photoshop
CS2 are paritally 64-bit and can access 6GB of RAM and a larger paging
file. It is very few applications that can use PAE. Personally, I rather
have 64-bit applications and more physical RAM instead being used in
Vista over using paging files that are 1000x slower access. As 64-bit
applications become available, it would be better to add RAM over paging
space.


Applications don't address physical memory, they only access their
virtual address space. So it doesn't matter where in physical ram an
application's virtual address space points to. It can be below or above
4G, it doesn't matter.

And how can an application be partially 64bit? Last time I checked on
adobe.com, photoshop is only 32bit.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old June 6th 08, 09:29 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.vista.hardware_devices
SCSIraidGURU
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 156
Default ram ..please help


CS2 could use 6GB of RAM CS3 wimped out and was completely 32-bit. CS4
is going to 64-bit. You can setup CS2 to use 4-6GB for scratch space
instead of hard drive.

Since most users run Windows and not Linux, you have the 4GB limit on
32-bit OS. I have not seen how well Vista 32-bit handles virtual RAM.
I use x64 Ultimate.
These are Microsoft forums. I doubt Linux users hang out on them. You
are correct about Unix and Linux using virtual RAM better. Since this
is a Microsoft forum, does it really matter.

My XP Pro box had 3.25GB physical RAM and 4095MB paging file. I would
get out of memory errors long before filling all 7.24 GB. I switched to
XP x64 to get 8GB of RAM and 12GB paging file to work better with my
apps. CS2 could access 6GB of RAM.

Would you rather run everything from your hard drive paging file or out
of physical RAM? With Vista x64 Ultimate SP1, it uses my RAM more
efficiently than XP x64 SP2. On Vista x64 Ultimate, I run 16GB physical
and 16GB paging. It wanted 40GB + 16GB for the C: partition. If 4GB
modules drop in price, I might check on a board that could do 32GB of
RAM.


--
SCSIraidGURU

Michael A. McKenney
'www.SCSIraidGURU.com' (http://www.SCSIraidGURU.com)

Supermicro X7DWA-N server board
pair of Intel E5430 quad core 2.66 GHz Xeons
16GB DDR667
SAS RAID
eVGA 8800 GTS 640 MB video card
 




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